what's your view on seed oils? Oy. No, just, you know, I mean, I'll say mine. I like olive oil and butter, coconut oil, and things like avocados and some Brazil nuts and walnuts and stuff. So since I don't count calories, I kind of have an intuitive sense of what I'm taking in, how much fat, how much protein, how much starch, how much, you know, fibrous carbs, et cetera.

So for me, like, I wouldn't pick canola oil because I could pick olive oil. Right, right. And then I make sure it's real olive oil. But I don't think seed oils necessarily will kill me, but guess why I know they won't kill me? Because I don't eat them. We should be eating whole food fats as much as possible, right?

Avocados, coconut, nuts and seeds, you know, omega-3 fats from fish, olive oil, which is the most minimally processed oil you can get, extra virgin olive oil. And we're eating nuts and seeds. We're getting a lot of omega-6s. So the big theory behind seed oils is that it's omega-6 rich.

It's imbalanced with omega-3s. It causes inflammation. The way they're produced and grown is problematic. They're usually GMO crops like canola oil. They spray lots of chemicals on them. Those chemicals get in the oil. They're manufactured in an industrial way that oxidizes them, that uses hexane to get rid of sort of some of the compounds in it, deodorizes them, bleaches them.

And then they're easily oxidized. So would I want to eat an industrial food product? Probably not. Do we know for sure that it's a problem? I think the data is mixed. I mean, there's some studies that show epidemiologically that, you know, people who eat more of these plant-based oils or seed oils have reduced risk of diseases.

So we don't know what they're doing and there's food frequency questionnaires and these studies are proving correlation, not causation. And what it's replacing. Sorry to interrupt here, but, you know, I'll see the data that seed oils are better for people than butter. Okay. I like grass-fed butter, but I don't eat it in excess.

Yeah. I once joked about that and I like, I made some jokes early on and having a podcast, not realizing the implications. But anyway, I'm very careful now. I have some butter in moderation. Yeah. But so I could imagine that if you're eating a lot of lard and butter and bacon fat and you replace it with seed oils, you'll get healthier.

Maybe. Maybe. Maybe. But you could imagine, I guess it depends on what else you're ingesting. Because the starch-fat combination is the one that gets people, in my opinion. That's right. That's right. But, right, somebody could be eating a lot of meat and fruit and doing it okay. Don't eat like your butter with a bagel.

Put it on your broccoli. Because the saturated fat, refined starch combo is what's killing us. I wish people would really hear you on this. It's not fat per se. It's not starches per se. It's the combination of fat and starch, and in particular, fat, starch, and sugar. Yeah. Well, starch, sugar, starch, and below the neck, your body can't tell if it's a bowl of sugar, a bowl of cornflakes, or a bagel, or a bowl of sugar.

So if I put a pat of butter on a bowl of white rice, is it that bad? No, not really. Okay. But if I put a pat of butter on a muffin, it's bad news bears. Yeah. You're doubling down on the sugar, yeah. And I think, you know, to answer your question about the seed oil, the data's not really completely answering this.

And it's part of the problem with nutrition. It's not a nutrition science. It's the one large randomized controlled trial that was done on like 9,000 people, not on 90 people or 50 people or 30 people, which a lot of these studies are, but on 9,000 people that were randomized in a psychiatric hospital.

Now, corn oil is a pure omega-6 oil, as opposed to soybean, which is mixed omega-3, canola mixed omega-3, 6 oils. And what they found was striking. They found that the group that had the corn oil, for every 30-point drop in LDL cholesterol, the risk of death from heart attacks or strokes went up by 22%, which is completely the opposite of what we think in medicine, which is LDL is the boogeyman.

LDL is the bad cholesterol or L for lousy cholesterol. It's not so simple. And I think this oversimplification of, let's say, these C-dolls lower LDL, therefore they're good, it's just too simplistic. But would I, for example, have a corn oil that was expeller-pressed or that was organic or canola oil that was or sunflower or safflower oil?

Yeah. I mean, I'm not worried about those in small amounts. But that's not what most people are doing. Most people are eating, most of their diet is ultra-processed food, 60% of adults, 67% of kids is basically junk food. And the major oil in those are these refined oils. So is it the oils?

Is it the junk food? They're just a vehicle for this. And we've increased our consumption, for example, of the main seed oil or bean oil, it's not really a seed, is soybean oil by a thousandfold since 1900. Now, I'm sort of an evolutionary thinker, I'm like, how are our bodies designed and what should we be doing with them?

And you talk a lot about light and that's like, you went to sleep with the sun, you woke up with the sun, it was just how things were. And you had circadian rhythms and our whole biological clocks and rhythms are screwed up because of how we live. Yeah, well, we evolved under the major constraint of sunrise and sunset.

That's right. And artificial lighting is a wonderful thing, but I think there's highly processed light. It's devoid of long wavelengths, the eradication basically of incandescent bulbs and all these LEDs and daylight savings times. It's really messing people up. It means, oh, it's just an hour. No, actually, it's your mental health.

When it comes to the seed oil thing, I actually predict that seed oils will lose. I think in the end, it's just obvious. Like, why wouldn't people just say, you know what? The seed oil thing may or may not be a problem. I'm just going to eat olive oil and a little bit of butter.

Yeah, that's kind of my view. My view is if you have a new to nature kind of compound or an unnaturally high amount of something that we're having in our diet, I mean, sugar was always around. We would get honey, whatever. But we'd have 22 teaspoons a year as hunter-gatherers.

Now we have that every day for every American. If you had a magic wand and you could get rid of seed oils or you could get rid of highly refined sugars in modern American diet, which one would you know? No contest. It's starch and sugar that's driving our metabolic crisis, like, by a huge factor, by a huge factor.

Does that mean no pasta, no bread? It doesn't mean no, no anything. It just means the volume of stuff we're eating. It's like we're eating pharmacologic doses. It's 152 pounds of sugar and 133 pounds of flour, which has a higher glycemic index than sugar. Really? Yeah, well, that's how it's set.

It's set at white bread as 100 and the sugar's 80 because it's fructose and glucose. So you have to break that apart. And so your glycemic load, which is how it affects your blood sugar, fructose doesn't raise your blood sugar. Glucose raises your blood sugar. Glucose raises your blood sugar.