(speaking in foreign language) The following is a conversation with Michael Malice, his fifth time on this "The Lex Friedman Podcast." To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, here's my New Year's Eve 2021 conversation with the one and only Mr. Michael Malice. (speaking in foreign language) Dostoevsky wrote in "The Idiot," my favorite of his books, through the main character, Prince Mishkin, that beauty will save the world.

(speaking in foreign language) These words, seemingly naive, and ultimately, at least to me, profound, what do they mean to you? Beauty will save the world. - Naive? Really? I don't think they seem naive at all. - Well, Sholzhenitsyn actually, for his 1970 Nobel Prize speech, talked about this line a lot.

And he thought for most of his life, that was a silly line. It was just words thrown out there because with all the suffering that's in the world, what has beauty actually ever done? - Oh my God, I hate this so much. (laughing) - You're talking trash about Sholzhenitsyn.

- Yeah, I am. - Okay. - And this perfectly sets up this theme. You know, I said, let's do this episode, start the new year on a positive note, give people hope, give people joy. You and I both have friends who are models, right? And it's a silly profession to some extent, of course, but- - You are actually a model.

You are my friend. - That's right, that's true. I am an under model. I was trying to be subtle. But for those people who actually, you know, deserve to be models, when you look at someone who is a model and in some of their photos, and these people look perfect.

Now in real life, they're not perfect. They have flaws. They'll be the first to admit it, so on and so forth. But when you look at beauty, it is almost impossible to maintain a sense of cynicism and hopelessness. Because if there's even one moment when some element of perfection has been actualized, if there's one moment where beauty has been realized and captured, you can't say, well, it's never gonna happen again.

So I think beauty, it means hope. I think I hate that cynical idea of like, I get, I appreciate Solzhenitsyn's broader point in that a lot of times people, there's something called the deepity, where people throw words together to sound profound. And if you take it apart, like this is just complete gibberish.

I don't think this is an example of that. I think beauty inspires, and more importantly, it proves to you this is something that can actually happen on this Earth. Plato, right, the Platonic theory of forms, like this world is imperfect, but these perfect forms exist in another dimension, and that's where our concepts come from.

You know, he was an early person trying to figure out where our concepts come from, and epistemology and so on and so forth. But that is something that is real in here. So I completely disagree with his analysis of that, and I don't know if it'll save the world, but it's certainly a prerequisite.

And what's the point of fighting for your values if you don't wanna make the world a more beautiful place? - Well, it's also how you define beauty, 'cause beauty could be just aesthetic beauty, it could be art. Of course, art could encompass a lot, a lot more than just literature and paintings.

It can encompass the full life, the full dance of life. But then beauty could be something just deeper, like whatever that awe you feel when you pause and hear the music, just hear and look up at the stars. Like for some reason when I see rockets go up, for me it's like science.

What is that? The awe that we're able to accomplish that as humans. - You know, that's funny, 'cause there's lots of different schools of thought, like these people versus these people, and maybe vegans versus steakhouse people. I think in terms of the sciences, and I guess you and I would be on opposite sides here, you have the astronomy people versus the zoology people.

Like the big question is, would you rather spend 10 minutes on the moon, or would you rather spend 10 minutes in the deep sea? And for me, it's clearly the deep sea. The zoology that's down there, there's something I would encourage people to look up called deep staria, which is a jellyfish.

And the scientists, what's amazing when you watch these deep sea dives on YouTube, is that the scientists, they're nature dorks like everybody else, they went into this field, and there's none of this maybe soljohnishin style cynicism of when they see an amazing animal in its natural environment exhibiting these crazy behaviors, they lose it.

They're on the mic like, oh my god! Like it's so exciting to watch. So I'm not a rocket person, but I'm definitely a zoology person. - So animals and plants and the sea. - And also it's so mathematical. There's so many forms. There's this plant called Areospermum titanopsoides. I don't know how to pronounce it, 'cause they're always in Latin.

You never hear them pronounced. - You said sperm. - Areospermum, yeah, 'cause it's a woolly seed is the genus. The leaf, it's just always puts out one leaf, but the leaf is covered in little magnifying glasses, lenses, to make it maximize the sunlight. So it looks like this little crystal seashell.

It's tiny, it's like two centimeters, but it's just this amazing thing that grows out of the sands in South Africa. - Just to defend Solzhenitsyn for a second, so if I may read a couple of his lines from the speech. - Sure. - So he said, "One day," this is how he introduces it, "One day, Dostoevsky threw out the enigmatic remark, "'Beauty will save the world.' "What sort of a statement is that?

"For a long time, I considered it mere words. "How could that be possible? "When in bloodthirsty history, "did beauty ever save anyone from anything?" And then later, he goes on to argue with himself in the speech, "As a older, wiser man now, "but perhaps that ancient trinity of truth, goodness, "and beauty is not simply an empty, faded formula, "as we thought in the days of our self-confident, "materialistic youth.

"If the tops of these three trees converge," as the scholars maintained, "but the two blatant, two direct stems "of truth and goodness are crushed, cut down, "not allowed through, then perhaps the fantastic, "unpredictable, unexpected stems of beauty "will push through and soar to that very same place, "and in so doing, will fulfill the work of all three.

"In that case, Dostoevsky's remark, "'Beauty will save the world,' "was not a careless phrase, but a prophecy. "Which of these three things are your favorites, "truth, goodness, or beauty?" What did he call truth and goodness? The blatant, two direct stems of truth and goodness, versus the fantastic, unpredictable, unexpected stems of beauty, which is how I see your Twitter account.

- I don't think, I think there's certain truth and beauty if you had my Twitter account, that's for sure. It's certainly no goodness. - Or truth. - Yeah, yeah. (laughing) It's Twitter, there's no truth to be found. I would, I will answer the question. I will, of course, point out that having this kind of, you know, distinction between the three things is, I think, kind of synthetic.

I think they very heavily overlap. If not, I can probably make the argument they're synonymous. In fact, I do believe that they're largely synonymous. - Goodness, that's such an interesting word, goodness. Which of those three is my favorite? I think truth is overrated in the sense that if something is a good story, the story doesn't have to be true or real in order to motivate you and move you.

A lot of times, we can delude ourselves about somebody and that might actually serve a purpose to some extent. You know, if you have someone who's maybe a family member and you kind of ignore bad things that they do, there might be a reason for that. Of the three, which is most important?

I think, I would say probably goodness. I would say of the three, the most important is goodness because if you don't appreciate goodness, then beauty is just empty. It's just a picture or it's nice. Bad people appreciate beauty. Bad people are often seductive or have a beauty about them.

- And in terms of action, I think it takes a lot of skill and work to create beauty or to create truth or to express truth or to express beauty. But I think goodness is, it's like the easiest default state of being, just being good to others. - Yeah, like, you know, there'll be things where, these videos where like one dog is drowning and like another dog jumps in and saves it from the pool.

Like that to me is just really amazing stuff and is very moving. So just, to me, goodness means integrity and it means kindness. And yeah, I think of the three, that's my, would be the one I pick. - Yeah, you actually-- - And I think people, I'm sorry to interrupt.

People also have this idea, which is inculcated to them, especially by corporate America, that as you get older, it's okay to do the wrong thing sometimes, blah, blah, blah, blah. I don't buy that. And so I think goodness gets rarer and rarer. And I think people know better and they tell themselves lies.

- Yeah, but once you get, allow yourself the chance to just be good, I think it makes for a better life. - Yeah. - It's not that much work. Like it's not like going to the gym and working out. That's a lot of work and it's great afterwards. But like goodness is easy once you get into the habit of it.

I suppose working out is the same way. There's a lot of stuff. If you make it a habit, you're going to get the rewards of it and it's going to be easy. - The rewards of goodness, I think, are more immediate than the rewards of working out. - As opposed to the hard drugs.

- Yeah. - If, you mentioned this quote on one of your live streams, I think, "If you save one life, you save the world." - Yeah. - That's such a cool line. I think, I remember reading about Paul Farmer. I think his name is, he's a doctor that really, I mean, doctors in general, they kind of don't care about like what they're doing as a broad policy across hundreds of thousands of millions of people.

They just care about the human in front of them, which is so interesting. They don't care it's going to cost, like in his case, to save one child, it will cost him hundreds of thousands of dollars. They don't care about that. They can't. They know very well that their actions cannot be scaled, but they can't help but help the child in front of them.

And it's so interesting. That's such an interesting way to live. And that's the way I kind of think when I try to do something positive is, will this help one person? And I just kind of imagine a specific person, depending on the thing, that that would help with. Like when I'm trying to create something, whether it's a piece of hardware or a video or anything like that, or educational material, lecture, that kind of stuff.

I don't know, what do you think about this quote? Is it profound or is it just poetic? - I think it's more profound than it sounds at first. The example I think of is Michelle Bachman. She was a former congresswoman from Minnesota. She clearly had crazy eyes. Something was going on with her husband.

But she adopted like 20 kids. Terry Shappert's another friend of mine. He's like a either Navy SEAL or Marines, whatever it is, Terry, I apologize. I'm not trying to be funny. And he adopts like elder dogs. So going back to Bachman, it's like, yeah, you can say she's crazy.

You can make fun of her politics all you want, and all that stuff's legitimate. But if you save a kid, give them a home, and you save them from the foster system, and you put a roof over their heads and make them feel loved and appreciated, it's really hard for me to sit here and call you like a totally bad person.

I think that kind of thing is, Nick Surcey's another one. He adopted a kid. And I said, I think you're a hero. Like if you, there's some, you know, one of the things that's very hard for me in writing, as you know, I talk about this endlessly, this book, "The White Pill." But writing about when people do hurtful things to children, it really is hard to watch.

And it's hard to, 'cause when you're an author, you have to kind of empathize with the character. You have to, where's this character coming from? Explain their point of view. And that's the one that's the hardest for me to wrap my head around. - Cruelty to children. - Yeah, or, and yeah, sadism to children.

It's just like, this is something even animals know not to do, do you know what I mean? Like dogs, when you see them around kids, they're very protective. If the kid pokes their eyes out, the dog doesn't do anything. So it's like, if you can't even get to that level, what kind of person are you?

So I think that quote is a profound one, and it's an important one. It also means we're not all called upon to be Superman. Right, you only have very finite ability to move the needle. But at the same time, if you have actually saved a life, you can go to meet your maker, you did your part.

You left the world a little bit better than you found it. And that's all you could ask anybody. - Also, I think from a policy perspective, it seems we just do better when we focus on doing a small thing, helping one person. 'Cause it feels like when you start talking about communism and all those kinds of things, when you start to believe you could do good by a lot of people, that's where your mind somehow stops being able to do good by a lot of people.

That's when you start to think about utopias and somehow utopias goes to, feeds power into the brain to where it deludes you completely and then you start, it's okay to crack a few eggs to make an omelet kind of reasoning and you run into trouble. It seems like it's much better, even when you have the power and the money and so on, to achieve scale, to focus on one.

- Or locally, yeah. - Locally, yeah. - Because then, so you have the feedback. - Exactly. - So if you have some kind of program in Austin or Brooklyn or something like that, and you can watch, oh, this is working, this isn't working, and you can port it out to other places, but top-down helping is, at the very least, it's gonna be inefficient.

And also, I think it's a lot more useful when you're helping people, when it's a one-on-one relationship, because then it's less, I don't know, embarrassing, but certainly less something to receive help. And you also feel, it's one thing if you get a check from the government, food stamps, it's another thing if someone's like, hey, I'm gonna buy you groceries until you get back on your feet.

You have this kind of motivation, I think, for most people to be like, you know what, this person believed in me, I'm gonna make it worth their while that they believed in me. 'Cause I didn't believe in me. - Yeah, when I was giving lectures at MIT, there was one, I was scared shitless.

And I mean, everybody, you know how students are and all that kind of stuff, they're kind of bored. And they don't understand that you're human too. Yeah. (laughs) Or this could be just me. - I don't understand you're trying to pass as human. - I know. But there's one gentleman in the audience, and he went to all the lectures, all the gentlemen, he was a faculty at MIT.

And he just, without, very kind of nonchalant, just said, after the lectures, he would kind of nod at me and say, you did great. And before, like one time he said, in a non-creepy way, I know this is gonna come off as creepy, he said, you look great today.

Like he said that in a, I don't, in the way, so he's like 60, 70, whatever, like he, in this, I don't know, it's in a wise sage way. 'Cause I was wearing a suit and tie. Like I look like, you know when you dress up like a young kid, you dress 'em up for-- - The barbit's festival, yeah.

You go to your barbit's festival, yeah. - So he was just like, all right, you're all dressed up, you look great, you got this. I don't know, that has a lasting impact, that kind of pat on the back. But I agree with you, cruelty towards other adults is somehow understandable.

'Cause it's a world full of conflict, but cruelty towards children doesn't, it doesn't quite, I can't understand it. I can't understand how you could act in a way that directly causes suffering to a child in front of you. - Yeah, that is, I don't think I've ever talked to you, this might be a good time to ask you about this.

What do you make, what lessons do you draw about human civilization from Jeffrey Epstein? From just laying, everybody thinks about different things. When you talk to Eric Weinstein, he thinks about intelligence and like who, like Jeffrey Epstein is a front for something else. That's what he thinks about. - I think about the weakness of grown men in the face of charismatic evil, which is like for me directly is MIT.

I didn't know, I actually was, I guess I was at MIT when Jeffrey Epstein was just at the very end. He must've been there. I didn't know any of this, but it really bothers me that nobody was able to see through this man. Because he's obviously, what is also obvious to me is that he was very charismatic.

Like, I mean, I try to think about human nature from this perspective is directly, like we said, help one life. Would I know a Jeffrey Epstein if he was in my life? Would I know evil when I saw evil? - Even if it's sitting across from you. - Even, I mean, you, so, exactly, the evil laugh, thank you, the thing.

(both laughing) - Well, there's-- - It's a necronomicon. - Well, the thing, I'm sure we'll talk about it, maybe not, it doesn't really matter. We see things, you and I, Michael, very differently about a lot of things, politically and so on. The reason I like you a lot, the reason I like the people I do in my life is there's a warmth, there's a kindness, there's a humanity underneath it all.

I don't really care what you believe. I don't care what your Twitter says. It's easy to mistake your Twitter to indicate that there's not a deeply human love for humanity in there, and that's why I'm detecting that. I think I would be able to detect that Jeffrey Epstein-- - You say detect, I'm just imagining the T-1000.

(laughing) - Detected, yes. I imagine, I hope I would be able to detect that Epstein lacks that completely. Even if he's charismatic in the humor he has, even if he is charismatic in the expression of curiosity for science, which he did, he was curious about, not just boring minutiae of science, he was interested about the big questions in science, which I could see that become exciting to scientists.

Oh, wow, here's a person who's thinking big. That's always exciting. When somebody goes into a room and thinks about how do we solve intelligence, how do we travel faster than the speed of light, that's exciting to people, especially people with money, 'cause it's like, all right, so we might be able to actually do big things here.

But you could see through the bullshit, the deadness in the eyes, I don't know. So I think about that because I feel like I have the responsibility for me as an individual to detect evil. So do you know who Michael Alig is? Okay, this is gonna be a whole long, this is gonna be on Lex Clips, but this is a whole long story.

So there was a scene in New York in the '90s called The Club Kids. And they would go out to different nightclubs at night, they would all dress in really kind of crazy costumes. But the costumes were all goofy, and just like an angel, this was dressed like a nurse, there was a juvenile aspect to it.

They're all taking ketamine and ecstasy to all hours, this is kind of, rape culture was coming up in there. And the head of it, and in fact, there's a clip on YouTube, I think it was the Jane Whitney Show of The Club Kids and Gigi Allen. Gigi Allen is a kind of punk rock performer, hard rock performer, who passed away.

And Gigi Allen was very aggressive and like a crazy person. My friend once saw him in a concert, and he took a dump on stage, smeared it all over his face, grabbed the girl from the audience, gave her a big kiss. And as she walked by him, she just went like this, like, excuse me, like went to the bathroom.

So the audience is screaming at Gigi Allen because he's very visibly over the top. Whereas you got a bunch of these kids dressed in these silly costumes, you guys just having fun. Well, the head of The Club Kids, Michael Allig, ended up killing someone. There was a kid called Angel Menendez who hung around with them.

He would always have angel wings and boots. One time they're at Michael's condo with a drug dealer named Freeze. They got into a fight. Angel got hit in the head with a hammer. They kill him. What are we gonna do with the body? They put it on ice in the bathtub.

They had a party. So everyone's going to the bathroom while Angel's body's there. Michael got, they're like, all right, we gotta take care of this. Michael got extremely high on heroin, had like cutlery from Macy's, sawed the body in pieces, put in a box. They took him in a cab.

The cab driver helped them throw the body into the river. And then Michael starts walking around Manhattan wearing Angel's boots and would tell people, oh, I killed Angel. Now, because he was a super effeminate, over the top, like he would pee in people's beer kinda guy, everyone's like, oh God, Michael, like you and your stupid pranks.

But it was true. And he got caught and he got sentenced to jail. So I was in a store in Manhattan in Soho. And it was one of those stores where you have like all sorts of things for sale. And I saw a painting and it said "Malice." And I'm like, wait, what?

And it was M. Alec. It was a Michael Alec painting. He had painted while in jail. So my mom bought it for me for my birthday. I don't remember what birthday it was. And I started writing him in prison. He was gonna write a memoir called "Allegula," which is clever.

And then I actually went to visit him. Like, I wanna see what this person's like. 'Cause on one hand, he's king of New York nightlife, this goofy person. And it's also kind of ironic that G.G. Allen is like, maybe he's gross, he's not killing anybody. He's probably an accountant off the stage.

And Michael Alec actually did kill someone and then bragged about it tongue in cheek. So, but meeting him, he passed away last December, on Christmas actually, Christmas 2020. He was clearly a sociopath. And I'd never met a sociopath before. Now, a lot of times you'll read these, like you'll take a BuzzFeed quiz, like, are you a sociopath?

And it's like, oh, my feelings weren't hurt when I was meeting someone. It's not a thin line between like me and you and him. It's a thick, thick line. Because when you're talking to someone like that, at least in this specific case, he was being very friendly. He wasn't, and it's not like he was gonna kill anyone or as a threat to me.

But there's that sense, like something's really off here. And he was talking to me about how after he had killed Angel, he would just talk about it because he felt so much guilt, he just wanted to get caught. It's like, no, no, no, what he was describing wasn't guilt.

He was describing just, he didn't like the knife over his head, like waiting to get caught. I'm like, you don't even know what guilt is? So it was kind of like, oh, wow. So as for Jeffrey Epstein, but the thing is, Michael Elling was in a very low social position.

And the thing is when someone is powerful, very high status, and they do something, we are, as kind of hierarchical animals, we kind of defer to their norms. So if you're at a party with, let's suppose, either of us, and it's like a Jeffrey Epstein party, and everyone at the party is doing some sort of weird drug we've never heard of, we wouldn't really feel comfortable judging them because their norms kind of become the norm for that space.

The lesson for me about Jeffrey Epstein, there's a lot of them, because I think this, to me, the biggest moment was the Amy Rohrbach situation. Amy Rohrbach was caught on a hot mic saying that they had all the goods on him, they had all the names, and that Buckingham Palace called them.

They killed the story 'cause they weren't gonna get a Meghan Markle interview out of it. So that, the willingness of those in power to do the wrong thing for the flimsiest pretext, I think was a big, important lesson. Also the fact that no one at ABC had any consequences for this.

In fact, the only person who got in trouble for all this was someone who used to work at ABC, went to, I believe, CBS, and they got fired from CBS because apparently they had access to footage at one point, even though they weren't the ones who had leaked it.

So whistleblowers are, like, the only, for example, the case in Eric Garner, the guy who was selling Lucy cigarettes in New York City, who was arrested, he had a heart attack or whatever it was on the way to jail, he died. The only person, so the cops had a situation, the only person who had gotten in trouble 'cause of that was the guy filming it, like, he went to jail.

So I think there is, if there's a lesson in terms of, look at Julian Assange, right? There's a huge amount of power exercised by elites to make sure that what is done on the cover of darkness remains on the cover of darkness. And also Kevin McCarthy, who is currently the House Minority Leader, leader of the Republicans, he wrote a letter to ABC News, like, you had this guy, maybe you couldn't call in the authorities, but you could have leaked it to somebody, why hasn't anything come forward?

Nothing happened as a result of this. We also have to keep in mind that the longest serving Republican Speaker of the House in history, Dennis Hastert, went to jail 'cause of things related to pedophilia and things like that. So as Russians, and this is something I think you and I have mentioned before, Americans are very naive, often, decreasingly so, about the nature of evil.

They think an evil person is someone who's like getting kickbacks, or, you know, the Cuomos are colluding, something like that, I would hardly even call that evil. No, no, this is the sort of things that are so depraved that you would never think about it in a million years, in your own home, you don't think in these terms.

And I think they get off on doing things that if the average person heard about it, the average person would be shocked, 'cause that gives them this sense of we're above them, we're different from them. The rules don't apply to us. - There's a lot to say here. So what is the norm thing you said at a party?

It's really interesting for an NRK-ass to say that. - Well, no, it's-- - No, well, I know, I know, I'm not sorry, that came off as criticism, I meant it as harsh criticism. (both laughing) No, I think about that a lot, as I find myself in situations where I'm invited to these kinds of parties where people have nice things, and I find it deeply uncomfortable for that reason.

I don't want to be sort of an activist that goes in and ruins a party. That's, I think that's not the courageous act. Neither is it courageous when everyone's doing some weird drug that you mentioned to join in, I think. Courageous is more being your, remaining yourself, sticking to your principles calmly in that room where everybody is doing the drug.

And just don't do the drug. Don't make a scene about it, but also don't do it. And I think that little act of courage over time is the way you resist Jeffrey Epstein. Exactly the thing you said is probably the situation where charisma works. So one charismatic person gets a little crowd going, and the crowd is everybody sort of establishes a norm at the little crowd.

And yes, there could be some dynamics that allow that norm to be established. Like you said, like rich and powerful people might enjoy being rich and powerful and better than everybody else kind of thing. But like I, especially for scientists, I thought they should have integrity and courage enough to see through that, not again as an activist, like so you can tweet about it, how courageous you are, but just literally, see, there's something off here.

There's something off here, and I'm not going to participate in it. - I'm gonna defend these scientists because something off, first of all-- - You're always defending academia, it's disgusting. - It's my favorite thing. I think that, first of all, this is gonna sound like a joke, and it's not, I bet you 90% of those MIT scientists are on the spectrum, so everyone they're gonna meet is gonna be off, right?

So I'm sure part of their brain is like, okay, this person's weird, this is just them being on the spectrum. - Like the light spectrum, I couldn't even finish the joke, okay, go. (laughing) - Number two is off, we tend to, there's this poem, I forget who wrote it, it was like Nick Cave or something, and it was describing, I think it was Goebbels, hair, normal, height, normal, weight, normal, what do you expect, horns, right?

So when you meet someone, you think something's off, there's gonna be a bell curve of what that could be, right? It could be that they're twitchy, or maybe they're completely asocial, and then you have Jeffrey Epstein over here, you're gonna need a lot of evidence to be like, oh, I feel something off, therefore this guy's the head of an international sex trafficking ring.

So yeah, you might be like, okay, but at the same time, if the extent of your relationship is this guy is interested in my work, he's gonna fund my work, and I don't have to give him anything in return, he's clearly intelligent, he's appreciating it, and being a scientist is a thankless job.

I know what it's like as an author, when I was writing Dear Reader, the North Korea book, my friends were sick of hearing all these North Korea anecdotes, 'cause at a certain point, it's like, okay, we get it, just save it for the book, and you gotta be in that lab, you're looking at the springtails, whatever it is you're looking at, no one knows what a springtail is.

- I just disagree with you, so that'd be interesting to draw the distinction between science and writing, because the scientific process itself is fun as fuck. You're solving little puzzles. - Sure. - So in itself, it's fun, so it's rewarding. The reason you go into science is you can continue, really without a boss, to continue having fun and solving puzzles.

So unless you become cynical and tired of the whole thing, so the people, the administration, or when you're running a large lab, and what you get sick of is the emails and the meetings and all that kind of stuff, the actual act of being in the lab is still fun as fuck.

If you allow it to be, writing, I feel like, there's more priority to publishing. Would you enjoy it, the tree falling in the forest, would you still enjoy any of the books you've written if they never got published? - Not to the same extent, not even close. - Right.

I think that the thing about science, it's almost like you get a peek into the mysterious. - Yeah, but this is, okay, this is where I'm coming from. Since moving to Austin, I bought over 150 plants. - Look how you're doing the politician thing. - Look, let me be clear, all right?

It's not-- - You are running in 2024, this is very interesting. - I bought 150 succulents for my house. They're thriving here in Austin as they wouldn't have in Brooklyn. - You have a great video about it. - One of those plants I have is the photo I took on my Instagram, there's no other photos on the whole internet.

None of my friends care. Or they care ostensibly, but that's cool. I have a better plant collection in my house than almost any botanical, succulent collection than any botanical garden in America other than probably the Huntington, and no one cares. - This is what ego looks like, by the way.

- I can prove it to you. - No, I know, but you don't have to rub it in. - Well, they have a big budget. I don't, so if I can put it together, they should be able to. So I can only imagine that a scientist who studied those spiders that look like ants, like, oh, and this species does this with the gender dimorphism, their friends are only gonna care so much.

So if you meet someone who has a lot of money who now cares about ant spiders, it's gonna be exciting for you. - Yeah, it will be very exciting. But I just wanted to push back on the, I think the act itself should be the biggest reward. I think you're always safe.

We're talking about goodness being a safe default. I think a good default for plants and for writing and for science is to just enjoy the act even if nobody cares. - Okay, this is where, okay, now I'm even, now I'm wondering why I'm pushing back so hard, and I realize what it was.

Because I've made this point several times, and I'm glad I can make it again. There's this window of time that happened in my life, and I know it happens to a lot of people, when you're in your 24 to 27, 28, right? So 21 to 24, you still have your friends from college, so on and so forth, right?

But then it's kind of like a poker game, and every so often, people cash out. They're like, I'm out, I'm out. They get married, they get a job, they move. And if you are someone who's a young, ambitious creative, that window is a very rough one because you're doing the right thing, right?

And you're not being a drug addict, you're not being a philanderer. Not that those things are wrong, but just like you're playing by the rules. You're creating your stuff, what you wanna be known for, contribution you wanna make for the world, and no one cares, and it gets very lonely.

And there's this very emotional disconnect about how is it that I'm creating, and I'm working hard, and I'm making something happen, and it's just radio silence. So that, I don't think it's that easy when you're the scientist, not me, when you don't have any kind of external validation. Humans only have so much fuel.

- Nothing worth having is easy, Michael. By the way, yesterday, talked on the phone with a person who said he was deeply moved the first time you mentioned this age group of 24 to 27. He's like, he's 26, he said, and he feels the full responsibility of that. So he left his corporate typey job to pursue something that he's really passionate about, and that was, you were an inspiration to him, which I was deeply saddened by that.

- I also inspired Michael Alex. (laughing) - The amount of mass murder, those that were inspired by you, will eventually lead to is truly horrifying. What were we talking about? So Jeffrey Epstein, oh, one thing I wanted to ask you, so let's put scientists aside. What about world leaders, Bill Clinton, your favorite person?

Why would he fly with Jeffrey Epstein? Why would he interact with that guy? - I mean, don't you think that that's kind of the deal, that I'm the president, and I get big and powerful people fly me around in their jets, and that's a symbiotic relationship? - Yeah, but don't you also have a good BS detector?

Don't you have a good detector for people who just wanna be in your presence? Like, I already understand that there's people like this out there. There's people that kinda wanna use me for stuff. - You mean Tim Dillon? - Tim Dillon. (laughing) - I love that guy. You guys met?

- We haven't met yet here. - You haven't met, okay, wow. - We met before in New York, but we had not since I moved here. - Yeah, so you should be able to detect that there's those people, and there's the people that have kindness in their heart, even if they can benefit from the interaction with you, but they're good human beings.

I feel like you run into a lot of trouble if you surround yourself or have any people that are manipulative like that. - But I think you make a bad example, 'cause let's look at Clinton, and let's look at Obama, right? So Obama, even though their politics are very close, I'd say in many ways, Obama is apparent, we don't know, I don't know either of them, but to me it seems very apparent that he's very similar behind closed doors as he is in front of the camera.

- Yeah, yeah, he's Barack to me. - Oh, okay. - Yeah, yeah. - He's good. - Yeah. Clinton seems very clearly to be much more of a performer. He's in front of the cameras, he puts on a role, but behind the cameras he very much has a temper. He's known for that.

He's much more of a lech. What's that? - A pervert. - Oh, lech with an E? - L-E-T-C-H, yeah. - Oh, cool. Lech, is that like a, that's a cool term, so I can use that on the internet? Like you're a lech. - Yeah, you can use it on the internet.

- You're a dirty lech. - Well, dirty's implied. - Oh, so it's, okay. - Yeah, so-- - Being redundant. - Yeah. - But it just feels like he needs an adjective to give it more power. Anyway, I'm sorry, so Clinton is a lech. - Right, so you can see how there's people who wanna meet the surface Bill Clinton, and I'm sure that gets old for him 'cause he has to be on, but then there's the good old boys where he could be a pervert, and this guy's like, yeah, I know what it's like, and then he feels like he's himself, but we're all speculating.

I mean, I don't know what Bill Clinton is like, what was in it for him. He certainly could afford private jets if he wanted to. There's no shortage of people who wanna fly around the world to give speeches, you know. - Can't he satisfy the lech within? Without hanging out with the Jeffrey Epsteins of the world?

Like, can't he get, I mean, this is the Monica Lewinsky question to me. I'm confused by all of this. Can't he get women in an illegitimate way of not using his power, not hanging out with these shady, rich people, but just having a normal mistress like JFK had? - Well, JFK had a lot.

- I know, I understand that, but in a normal way, or I don't know enough about JFK. - I don't understand the Clinton psychology. First of all, the fact that you're hooking up with someone who's close to your daughter's age, to me, I think is inherently disturbing. But she's an adult, so okay, that's not that, that, you know, beyond the pale.

But also the idea that, oh, if I don't physically fornicate with you, it's not cheating. Like that, whatever you tell yourself, or like if I don't ejaculate, it's not cheating. Like these rules that-- - Maybe it leads to some kind of slippery slope. Like you start not having the rules of-- - Who you fool, I mean, if you told your wife, like listen, it wasn't cheating, she only, you know, performed on me, you're gonna say this with a straight face?

Like do you, at a certain point when something is so brazen, you wonder if the person even has to believe it, because who are you fooling? But like we started this conversation with, there is a line between young women older than 18 and young teen, like 12, 13, kids.

- Have you ever, when's the last, oh, 'cause it's different for you 'cause you're at MIT. I was hanging out with Blair White, and she had a couple of fans of hers, and they were like 22, 23, and they were like children to me. Like I'm like, to me, as someone who is in his late 60s, to look at these people as adults, like they look completely like kids.

So that-- - Now, of course, there's exceptions. Like I've interacted with young 20-year-olds that are like, you're way more mature than I'll ever be. Like the wisdom that comes out of them is quite fascinating. - Visually, the energy and the way they look, they looked so young to me, and the way they carried themselves.

The idea that my instinct was, let's tuck you in and read you a bedtime story, not let me touch you or something. It was just like, it just wouldn't enter my head. So there's, but the thing is, is it possible that in order to wanna be the president, you have to be a crazy person?

- That you have some kind of weird view on power. It could be a power thing, too. - Yeah. - Like you can get away with stuff. Like if I was Clinton's age, nothing about Monica Lewinsky to me would be attractive. And also, I would just feel bad for her 'cause I know she's gonna catch feelings.

And it's kind of like-- - Catch feelings, yeah, it's true. This is very true. - It's just like, why would I do this to this kid? For what? Just 'cause I wanna get some momentary pleasure? Come on. - Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I'm sure she looked gorgeous to him in the moment.

Well, let me ask, we started talking about beauty. Who are you wearing? (laughing) So as a model, you usually don't have a shirt on when you're modeling. So it's nice to see you dressed up today. Nice and warm. - This is because, so for those who don't know, Russians don't celebrate Christmas.

Obviously, with the Soviet Union, Christmas was illegal. - No Thanksgiving, basically no major holidays where everyone gets together. This is the one holiday, New Year's. - Yeah, New Year's, Novigrad. And instead of, I remember as a kid, instead of Santa Claus, we have Ded Moroz, who's the same thing, basically.

- It's like Android and iPhone. It's like a cheap version of Christmas. - He's got this girl with him. She's like Snow White or whatever. And Russian kids, they go to sleep on December 31st, and they wake up January, and they have a present under their pillow. And I remember as a kid, this happened once, and it just blew my mind.

You know what I mean? It's just like, I went to bed, and my dad's like, "Oh, you know, you're gonna have, "Ded Moroz is gonna bring you a present "if you've been a good kid." I'm like, "I think I was a good kid." But you don't even remember a year of your life when you're four.

You remember like two weeks. - You remember those moments. - Yeah, and then I woke up, and there was a present under my pillow, and it just blew my mind. That building is still there, 1461 Sherwood Parkway in Brooklyn. And it's just also funny. What I really like about kids, being an uncle now, is kid logic.

Because they have very little data, but they're using logic to make sense of it. And sometimes it gives them the completely wrong conclusions for the completely right reasons. I remember, my bedroom as a kid was right off the kitchen, and I'd be scared of the dark a little bit, so they'd leave the light on the kitchen while I went to sleep.

And at the same time, my parents had told me, "You don't leave the lights on the house. "It costs money, wastes electricity." So I would be worried, 'cause I'm like, "Oh my God, my parents leave the lights "on the kitchen all night, "and now it's costing them so much money." Not realizing that five minutes after I'm out, obviously they're turning the lights off.

But in my kid logic, this was a concern of mine. - Yeah, and memories work that same way. I have a collection of memories that are stitched together logically somehow, but they also don't really make sense. There's a few defining things. So I grew up in Russia, and experienced a lot of New Years in Russia.

There's a lot of incredible things about that tradition that just warms my heart. So one, as a kid, you mentioned these kind of stories, that's the one night of the year that kids are allowed to be adults in the following way, like in kid logic. You're allowed to stay up all night.

- Oh yeah, okay. - That was as late as you want, which actually ends up being, you're not used to it. - 11, right, you're out. - You crash, but no, you get to two, three, four at night, you stay up, and what you get to witness is almost like "Alice in Wonderland" goes into this world.

You get to witness what is the adult world really like. Now, obviously it's not an actual adult world. - A lot of drinking and fighting. - Merriment, like laughing, fighting, arguing, but also, in our case, like singing, and arguing, like philosophical stuff, but also, if I may, how would I describe it?

This is also probably a little bit of Russian culture, but flirtation in all of its forms, meaning men and women just being like, 'cause they dress up. It's joy, it's like you get to show off dresses, whatever you got, you show it off, this is fun. And then men, too, just like friends, laughing, arguing, just showing off the best they got with delicious food.

Obviously, there's a Thanksgiving element there, where there's just so many, you bring out all the traditional stuff. You have salad, just everything, just the full thing with the desserts, and obviously the vodka, a lot of vodka. And at the time, so this is the Soviet Union, the biggest stuff, and this is so sad that these are the things I remember, is Coca-Cola.

- Oh, yeah. - Like American, I would probably kill somebody for a Dr. Pepper. It's so fascinating that you take it for granted, sort of the results of capitalist society, the material things that are created, but that was the ultimate happiness, is to experience this new thing, sugar, I don't know.

Under scarcity, you just love it. - There's like communist Coca-Cola in Czech Republic. So basically, they tried to rip off Coke, and it's just like, they just threw whatever they could together, and it was a very poor knockoff, as you can imagine. I forget what it's called, and all the Czech people right now are getting very angry at me 'cause I can't think of it.

But they have it now, and the slogan is, "Good or weird?" So it's like this, so they kind of reclaimed this kind of hipster soda, yeah. - Oh, that's awesome. It's almost like a parody. - Right, yeah. - But I think the thing I really remember is the camaraderie, like the love for each other, and neighbors too.

Like you and I are neighbors now. We don't see each other that often. I hope that changes, but a lot of it is also me. I'm just a deep introvert. - You're also the hardest working person I know. - Yeah, so it's time, but you know, it's not like I'll go in the middle of the night at like 4 a.m.

and go to 7-Eleven, just sit there sipping a Slurpee for an hour thinking about life. So it's not like I'm always working. Yeah, I don't know. What I mean is you get to meet your neighbors, and you get to experience their highs and their lows, and you get to bitch about life, about government, about corruption, about the unfairness of life together.

- Well, it's also, I think, what people don't appreciate as Americans is it's very rare in Russia to have a safe space. - Yeah. - So you know that January 1st, no one's gonna snitch on you. They're not gonna be informants probably, so you can vent, and that's the thing with people in totalitarian countries.

You have to have the public-facing persona, and then behind closed doors, it's very different. - It all comes out. I also remember the arguments, and I've been going on Clubhouse recently into Russian rooms. - Oh, Jesus. - Well, just to practice Russian, and it's so beautiful to watch. I mean, Clubhouse is a very specific collection of Russian people.

Maybe it's a little bit political, and they're a little bit older, and it's interesting to watch how much they love to argue. - Oh, Russian love to argue. - They love. And so it would be literally, you could think of it as a nonlinear dynamical system, okay, from an engineering perspective.

Whenever any positive topic comes up, you could feel the skepticism, and then wait a minute, this is not good, and they'll start perturbing it until you're like, they'll find some way to say, like, come on now, that is the dumbest thing I've ever heard, and then it goes back into argument.

It's so fun to watch, because in one sense, you could see it as negative. In another, you could see it as free to express yourself, because it feels like you can solve a lot of problems by allowing yourself to just be emotional, both emotional and say hard truths and all those kinds of things without patting yourself on the back about it, but also, it just, sort of those Russian rooms, make me realize how constrained American speech is, how careful people are in the way they express it, even the Michael Malis is in the world.

You're constantly being nuanced. There, they just say crazy shit, and then they correct themselves and make fun of themselves, and they completely shift opinions a minute later, and it's chaos. - Yeah. - I mean, it's beautiful chaos. So I love that that culture is present. It's funny, given the current regime in Russia, like how that's coupled with how people are talking, and yeah, I don't know, and I have those memories of childhood, of friends that I had, of just having that true freedom of talking, and somehow that leads to deep bonds together.

When the life, when you're poor, when life has a lot of elements that are unfair, when the government is corrupt, there's sort of, it's just, especially in the Soviet Union, there's uncertainty about the future, all of it, you just get closer together, like penguins huddling together in the cold, like that March of the Penguins movie, that, I don't know, the friends I've gotten there, I get emotional every time I kinda think about those friends 'cause it was so close.

That friendship was so fucking close. - But I just really hate the Russian cynicism. - No, I know you do, and I actually disagree with you about it. You see it as cynicism. I see it as waves on top of the water, like surface cynicism, and the depths, I see the beauty of the Russian soul.

So we, like, yes, that cynicism can negatively affect a lot of people. I think you've talked about, like, as a parent, being cynical about the world, and then you have dire negative consequences on your children, they become cynical, they don't ever take big risks, they take on bold things, and I have those arguments because the cynicism is exhausting, it's destructive, it's anti-creative, but, so in their perspective, as this is what the Russian folks would say, well, yes, that's our role.

Like, being cynical is being reasonable about the world. - But it's not, it's completely unreasonable. It's a complete lie. - No, I know, but their argument is, yes, but we're giving you this force, and it's your job to resist against it. So it's a test. - I love the idea that if you're gonna be creative and innovative, you don't have enough up against you.

- Yeah, exactly. This is exactly it. - It's not hard enough already that I wanna be an author, and now you gotta be like, well, let me just put some fire ants on top of it. - So I just wanna separate, I agree with you that the cynicism is bad and destructive, but the idea that life is suffering, and thinking from that as a first principle, I think there's a lot of beauty to be discovered through that.

So there's a cynicism, and then there's a horrible message. - Life is suffering? - No, not, well, yeah, I mean, Camus. - Camus doesn't think that. - Now we're going into definitions of suffering then, because absurd. - Life is absurd and life is suffering are not even close to the same concept.

- Well, then you're just defining the terms differently. - Well, that's 'cause they're different terms. - Well, so is love and beauty, but so let's define, okay. - Wait, you're telling if your baby's in the crib, like with a fever, you're like, oh, that's absurd. No, it's the kid's suffering.

It's not the same. - So yes, starvation, see, you've been, for the white pill researching, a lot of actual specifically defined suffering. - Sure, but also a lot of wonderful things. - Right, yeah, yeah. But the word suffering can encompass more than just specifically starving, and it can encompass, like a lot of the philosophers talk about it, it encompass like philosophical suffering, the fact that there is, if you're not careful, life can appear meaningless.

You can fall into a nihilistic view. Like it's difficult to have the responsibility of freedom to act in this world, because you can fuck up in so many different ways. And then life is seemingly unfair in the sense that good things happen for no apparent reason, and terrible things happen for no apparent, like it's the old religious question of why does evil happen in the world, or why do terrible things happen in the world?

- There's this book called Six Word Memoirs, right, where all these different personalities-- - Those are awesome. - Were you in it? - No. - I'm in it with, so you had to basically write your autobiography in six words. - In six words. - And mine was, good things happen to bad people.

(laughing) - You see, there you go, there's humor. - Yes. - That's your way of dealing with the suffering. - But I don't think life is inherently, if life was suffering, we wouldn't be able to have happiness. - No, out of suffering, happiness is born. So like it's the ups and downs of life.

And what it means like-- - I don't, I disagree, I don't agree at all that you need to suffer in order to be happy. I agree you have to work hard, but that's not the same thing. - Yeah, all right, so the way I'm using suffering, I think a lot of them use suffering is the way you use like gravity.

So in order for the roller coaster to work, you need gravity. There needs to be a force that bring you down. - Sure. - In that same way, there's like, you have to resist the natural pull of nature that wants to destroy you. - No, nature wants you to, nature's indifferent, but we have the capacity 'cause we're blessed with minds and we're blessed with friends.

- Yeah, to transcend nature. Yeah, no, I know, but I think it's a word that captures something about life that there's no reason to it, that is absurd. I think to me, oftentimes, the way I think about the word suffering is synonymous with absurdity. - This is not suffering, but this is absurd.

I just noticed there's a box with a big bow on it next to you. What's in the box, Michael? - It's your present, so it's your present for New Year's. - Can we open it? - Yeah, sure. - What's in the box? - It's gonna take-- - And you brought up suffering.

This is gonna be very unpleasant. - Here you go. I packed it myself. Yeah, there's a whole process in there. So there's three presents in there. - Less. - I'll read the card first. - Okay. - Something about opening presents, like tearing stuff, makes me feel like, 'cause I just tore the sheet of paper, so it'll never be the same again.

- It's entropy. - It's entropy. Times, you've got a powerful voice. You've got a powerful voice. To Lex, thank you. Maybe I should read the other card first. You've got a powerful voice. Listening to what you have to say always puts me in a hopeful place. I feel like this is building up to something.

You show me how change can happen when you face the world with pride, confidence, and a voice that can't be silenced. Keep speaking up. The world is listening. - Yeah. - There's no cynicism in this card. - No, this is New Year's. This is all about hope and joy.

(laughing) What? - To Lex, I'm seeing the binary. To Lex, thank you for setting the path for me to move to Austin. Zero one, zero zero one. Zero zero one, zero one one, zero one one, zero zero zero one one, one zero one zero one. Michael Mells. - Yeah.

- Brings tears to my eyes. Thank you, brother. - My pleasure. - Let's get to the present. (laughing) - Okay. - It's a PC box. This is very promising. It better not be sex toys. - There's nothing, this is all, there's nothing inappropriate at all. Why would it? - Why would sex toys be inappropriate?

- Because you're-- - That's sex positive. - Because you're a virgin. - You gotta bring a knife to a party. - How clever is it to put it in a PC box? - Well, I had it, I just got a new PC. Okay, there's also a can. - Yeah.

- Open the can first. - Open the can. Do you wrap this yourself? (laughing) That scared the shit out of me. (laughing) Could get back in the can. - That actually stayed in there. That's magic. - Just gotta cut the string. - No. (laughing) You're the most beautiful troll of all.

- I am. - I love you so much. This is awesome. (plastic crinkling) - Did it not work? Pick it up. Oh, it didn't work. - There's a terrifying springy feeling to this thing. I don't wanna open this. - I need to move something aside. (plastic crinkling) I hate you so much.

- What? - What? Oh, is it the other way? - No, just pick it up. (laughing) (plastic crinkling) - I can't believe I fell for that. Thank you so much. Wrenches are my favorite. I can't believe I fell for that. - Okay. - And there's box number three. - It's like a matryoshka.

- I can't believe that worked. - Yeah. I wanted the box to open all these gears to fall out, but you can't get any. - You can't get them, yeah. - Does that really grind your... - You know what grinding is? - Why am I scared? Okay. There's another box.

This leads to my death. - No, no, there's a story behind it. (laughing) - I can't believe that worked. Oh God, that's so good. All right. - All right, no springs, no weapons. - No wrenches. Okay, so let me tell you the story behind that toy. - Tonka robots that turn into vehicles.

- So when I was a kid, you had Transformers, but for us poor people, you had GoBots, right? So the GoBots, they were four main characters for the good guys. It was Leader One, Smallfoot Turbo, and Scooter. And what was annoying is when you had the action figures, you couldn't find the ones that were on the TV show.

And I was a big GoBots fan as a kid. And I went once to the Toys R Us in Caesars Bay in Brooklyn with my grandfather. My grandfather was always very lucky, like just good things happened to him every so often. And I went there, I remember very vividly, they must've just unpacked, they just loaded the shelves.

And how they had the shelving, it would be like a grid. You'd have like, it was like one, two, three, four, five, five rows and like five by five. And I remember it was like two up. And then you have to do, you have to sit by the side and kind of sort through them.

And with the GoBots, each package had a picture of the different figures. So the packaging wasn't uniform. And they just had Scooter there. She was just sitting there. And I was like, holy crap. So that feeling when you're a kid and you find that just sitting on the shelf-- - Scooter's right there.

- It's just, it was such this-- - Wait, is this that Scooter? - No, I have it though. But that one is for you. I thought if you want to put it next to your other robots-- - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Open it up. - I can open it up?

- Yeah, yeah, it's for you. And that way, it's that symbol of joy when you have when you're a kid, when you find something you really want. I think it just is really like, so when people look at it, they'll be like, don't be hopeless. - I'll open this carefully later.

- No, do it, just do it. - Yeah, should I do it now? - Yeah. - Okay. - There's no way to open it carefully. Kids don't open stuff carefully. You rip that crap open. - But then you break it and then you cry. That's what happens when you're a kid.

- I never did that. - Okay. Me neither, I never cried. I never got presents either. - That is so cool. - All right, Scooter. - You symbolize childlike discovery. - Right? - The poor man's robot. - The poor man's transformers. I think there's instructions on the back how to transform her.

- To her? - I only found out as an adult that it was supposed to be a girl, yeah. - Wow, this changes everything. (laughing) Thank you, Mark. That's incredible. - No, give me, here, let me show you. It looks better when she's transformed. What? - No, there's levels to that statement.

- Oh. - How does it do like this? Let me see if I remember how to do it. 'Cause I had this as a kid. - Arms out. - The thing is, these are easy to break, I remember. Is it like this? - No, oh, the front comes out.

- Oh, let me see this. Oh, this comes up, yeah, yeah, yeah. - Yep, so that's that. The arms go. - I'm having visions of like baby Michael. - I can't do it. Okay, I can't do it. I can't figure it out. - Wow, you're right. She looks so much better transformed.

Oh. All right. I'm gonna follow the instructions in a bit. - Yeah, yeah. - I'll leave this failed project of yours. Oh, there's a wheel out. - Well, I don't like this in between form. - Well, this is how it's gonna be. - Okay. - Because we're gonna be accepting of the transformation.

That takes time. - Okay. - I got, I saw this. - Oh, it's this. - Little thing when I was walking on Congress and it says resist. It's a bracelet. It made me think of you. The reason I got it is 'cause there's two bracelets. So one said lucky fuck and the other one said resist.

Now I first saw resist and I'm like, and then I saw the lucky fuck and I realized I'm a lucky fuck to find a relevant. It makes me think of you. - This is very nice. - Resist the powerful. - That's true. I saw this somewhere. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

This has to do with, in terms of resist, you often bring up the book Machiavellians by James Burnham. And so I was looking through, I was reading different parts of it. It's a tricky read. It's a little bit, but there is a ebook, Kindle version now that I've been working through.

I think there's an actual audio book too, anyway. - Yeah, I just bought some. The Machiavellians is James Burnham's analysis of the four thinkers that he regards as the Machiavellians. It was Gaetano Mosco, Vilfredo Pareto, George Sorrell, and I'm blanking on the Mosco, Pareto, Sorrell, and George Michel. And I just got Pareto's autograph in the mail this week.

- So he talks about freedom and liberty. This is an interesting line that I'd like to get your opinion on in terms of resist and in terms of liberty. There's no one force, it goes, quote, there's no one force, no group, and no class that is the preserver of liberty.

Liberty is preserved by those who are against the existing chief power. Oppositions which do not express genuine social forces are as trivial in relation to entrenched power as the old court jesters. So, I mean, the question here is, can liberty, are you comfortable with that definition or that view of liberty, of freedom, that at its highest ideal is expressed through the resistance to the powerful as opposed to existing in its own?

- I think his point, broadly speaking, which I agree with, is the only thing that can work to mitigate power is other power. That it's, talk is cheap and persuasion has very limited efficacy. It's like if there's a burglar, right, and one person will give you a speech about property rights and you shouldn't be in this person's house and the other person has a gun, you know, it's clear which is gonna be more persuasive.

- Yeah, but can't you just be free without the struggle, without this conflict? I mean, what I'm uncomfortable with this view is how closely it links freedom and conflict. Like, why does this world have to have conflict for you to be free? Can't, I mean, and part of it is just emphasis.

- Well, you weren't just saying suffering is what leads to joy? - See, and now you're in agreement. Thank you, I just did that just so you can come around and agree. I win, next topic. (laughing) Wow, I'm playing 3D chess here. Okay, this is New Year's. This is now December 31st.

I think that's how it works, but in 1973. - Okay. - We recorded this before you were born. Oh no, years after you were born, 60. You look great for 60, early 60s or? - Sure. - Okay. What five things, let's say, or moments in 2021 are you grateful for?

Or people, just, I don't know, things, moments, beautiful experiences, profound essences of the year. Like looking back, what are the cool things? - Personally or socially? - Do you exist like in a platonic way socially? I mean, oh, in your personal life? - Yeah. - Anything. You're both, you're now Michael Malice.

You exist as a social entity and a personal human being and all of it, the whole thing. Like what stands out to you about 2021? - The fact that for the first time in my life, other than college, I moved to a new city. That was a very big one and there's no part of me that regrets it or misses New York.

So that was a very big deal for me. - What do you, about this move, about Austin itself, but maybe the move itself, maybe just the act of moving, what's great about it to you? - The fact that I had forgotten what it's like to have a huge social network, which I had in New York, before people started falling away and then it really escalated as a result of de Blasio and the COVID restrictions.

So to have a big crew here is something that was very validating. The thing that's also exciting about Austin is that Austin is not a particularly big town. It's not a particularly great town, but everyone here, at least in the circles I travel in, is kind of a refugee from their towns.

So there is this sense of camaraderie. There is the sense of we're building something together. Back in New York, when you meet someone, it would be like, who is this person? Why am I talking to them? Like, are they a normie? Are they gonna be weird? And here there's very little of that.

I think there's much more sense of trust with one another when you meet new people. So that's something that's really exciting about, like I've been introducing all my friends to each other and everyone's been hitting it off like gangbusters. It's really great. So I really enjoy that about Austin.

I'm enjoying the weather, the space. - You read Kerouac, any of his stuff? - I have, on the road, I read a biography of him. - I don't know if it was on, I think it was on the road where he talks about that feeling when you go into some place, you're leaving a place and you go in somewhere else and the place you're leaving disappears behind you and all the people and all, like you just think about that life and it's forever gone.

And there's some inkling of that where you get to realize your almost mortality because, okay, that's a chapter and there's not many more. I know it's a beautiful chapter, but now on to the next chapter. Is there a melancholy feeling there? - No, it's the opposite. I feel like I've been given a new lease on life 'cause I didn't realize to what extent there was this subtext of hopelessness in New York and also people who in New York you don't appreciate or you appreciate it consciously but you can't escape it emotionally, how much the winters get to you psychologically.

It's tough, it gets dark so early, it gets cold, you can't walk around. Like that's the thing that's fun about or what's fun about New York is that when the weather's warm you can walk for an hour and just enjoy the sunshine and there's a lot to see and do, but in the winter you don't have any of that, it's brutal.

And here it's just, so that is something, there's no melancholy at all. - Well, that's because there's, can we say something beautiful about New York? Not the way it is now, but the way it-- - I could go on for days about how great New York was. - What did you learn about human civilization and just life that was beautiful from New York?

- I learned that there's a lot of really unique special people out there who are doing their little part to move the envelope and make the world a better place. And that when you have a city where they're all there together at the same time, then that really moves the world.

And I'm thinking of Paris in the '20s and Harlem in the '20s and New York in the '70s and LA in the late '60s and San Francisco, especially in late '60s, things like this. They really punch above Detroit, certainly, at its heyday. They punch above their weight and just really kind of, Philadelphia in the 1700s, things really start happening and that ripples throughout the world.

- You think Austin has a chance to be a Paris in some way? - Yes, 'cause again, it wasn't all of Paris, it was the left bank of Paris and Gertrude Stein and Hemingway and all of them in a little area. So when you read these history books, these scenes, it's like 50 people in a 10-block radius.

These aren't these huge Davos conventions. - Okay, so the move, the big move. What else stands out to you? Again, both personally and socially, like zooming in and zooming out. - I did a book with a UFC fighter and I was making the point, he was a nine-time world champion, that I would never be as good at my job as he was at his.

And then when I dropped Anarchist Handbook in May and it was the top nonfiction book on Amazon for most of the day, I was like, oh, I'm the top nonfiction writer in America just for today. I was like, oh crap, okay, so I guess I was wrong. That was a major deal.

I was still shocked and delighted. - By the way, congratulations. I'm truly happy for you, man. I'm so proud. But it's also, I'm proud because these are people who had points of view and they didn't have it easy and they fought for what they believed in. And insofar as I get to rescue them to some extent from the dustbin of history and say, these people really mattered and they really are worth hearing, that I love.

I love stuff like that. I was talking to a friend of mine, Topher, a year ago. 'Cause we're in a weird position with what kind of jobs we have. So I'd be talking in my live streams about people like Kandi Darling or Wallace Thurman and these are not household names at all.

And then I'd be proud of myself that I'm the one who brings them to some sort of more prominence. And then you wanna tell yourself, well, get over yourself who you think you are, but no one else is talking about these people or very few. So to be able to kind of give them some kind of stature and platform that they deserve, I think is, I love being able to do that.

- So you have a strong voice yourself and to sort of join them in, it's like John Lennon joining in with the Beatles. It's like a chorus of very different views on anarchism. It's celebrating the individuals, it's celebrating the idea and you are, I think will be remembered as a powerful philosophy yourself, but like you're almost taking just the humility of being in a room with powerful minds together in one book, it's cool.

- Yeah, and that these people mattered and they had a unique perspective. And as I said in the introduction to the book, I remember I was in college and we were studying bioethics and there was like a graph in the book and one part says antinomianism, which was the view that, and one side said legalism, right?

These two extremes, legalism is what is legal is defined by the government or what is moral is defined by the government. And one said antinomianism, which is nothing stands above moral law. And then there was like, well, since no one believes in this, the answer is something to the other side.

It's like, well, why is it on the charge of no one believe, if it has a name, someone believes in it. So anarchism is a word that's bandied about and in a dismissive way. And it's like, you don't have to like me or agree with what I'm saying, but you can't pretend that they weren't Tolstoy.

You're gonna tell me Tolstoy doesn't know what he's talking about completely. He's in there, he was an anarchist. So it was a big accomplishment. - It was really cool to get a chance to do the audio book. You did an incredible thing, which has got a bunch of really cool people to read, a lot of interesting, varied people to-- - Yeah, so what I did for the audio book, which I don't like the idea that hard work is inherently good 'cause sometimes being lazy is actually the right choice.

So I'm like, wait a minute, why am I reading all 23 chapters when it's 23 different authors? Does it make sense? So I hit my Rolodex and I had different people read different chapters to make it sound literally like you have the different voices in the book. Thank you very much for you did my, 'cause I was gonna read my chapter, wait a minute, like all the other authors are being read by somebody else.

Let's have Lex read mine. The one chapter I am most moved by is Lauren Chen, she's a podcaster as well. She's expecting now, so we wish nothing but the best for Lauren and Liam and the Babby. There's a chapter there by this guy named Charles Robert Plunkett called "Dynamite" and he's advocating for making bombs and killing people, killing the forces of capitalism.

And Emma Goldman was publishing her essay while she was in lecture tour and she was just like, why is this in here? This is just really gonna make us look bad, so on and so forth. And when you're dealing with any kind of, you know, HL Mencken has that quote about every rational man must at times be tempted to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats.

So I wanted to talk, sound like the seductive aspect of violence. Like that's the problem, like when you're dealing with terrorism, when you're dealing with political violence, to be able to understand how people can fall for this, how people can be persuaded to think this is a good idea, that I'm gonna make some dynamite and throw it into this crowd and kill police officers and innocent people possibly in service of, you have to, it's easy to say, oh, they're all crazy, but they're not, you know, even most people who are crazy don't do these things.

So to have a woman read that chapter and I told her kind of read it like a phone sex operator because I wanted to have that siren song of like, so you can understand why this calls out to people who are in the rope, the people who are like marginalized.

And she did such a superb job with that chapter. - That's such a beautiful vision. Yeah, 'cause violence, that's a violence part of human history to a degree that it must be seductive. It must be, there must be a strong pull. Like it's not insane people. There's something probably deep within our nature that craves violence.

And then when there is charismatic leaders that inspire that and revolution plus violence, that I could see that being extremely seductive to us. Like when you're truly suffering in your current situation, whatever it is, you're being oppressed by governments or being oppressed by the powerful, violent revolution is probably there's something deep within us that longs for that.

- And also this kind of the Jelaine Maxwell to Jeffrey Epstein, right? You need that woman to be like, no, no, this is okay, honey. Come along, it's not a big deal. Don't listen to what your parents told you. They're just prudes. It's a siren song. - What do you think about Jelaine Maxwell and the trial and so on?

Again, maybe the interesting story there is about the coverage of the trial. So like the story is more complex and interesting than the actual horrific acts themselves. So to me, I don't, maybe I'm not knowledgeable enough, but to me, she's also truly evil. I don't know where to, maybe you can help me to figure out who is more evil.

Just like you said, now the person that says, it's okay, it's okay, that helps the evil doer or is it the evil doer themselves? I don't know, but I think she scares me more than Jeffrey Epstein somehow. There's people like that in the world too. - Like a Twitter poll, do you think it's more evil or less evil to kill someone 'cause you've been paid to do it and people, the winning answer was more evil and I said it was less because I think in that case, you can kind of check out, you could be like, this isn't my, I'm just doing a job.

I think in a sense, if you have a certain mindset, like intellectually remove yourself from the situation, I'm just a conduit. When you're talking, I haven't been following her case that that much. - It's 'cause you mostly watch CNN and CNN's not covering it. - Well, I think my broader point would be people who are untouchable and who know they're untouchable do much worse things than those of us who aren't that way can appreciate.

Like I was just talking about on Twitter about Rosemary Kennedy. She was one of JFK's sisters. It's not clear whether she was developmentally disabled or had like depressive mental illness. There was something clearly off with her to some capacity and at age 23, they gave her a lobotomy and the thing with a lobotomy is you have to be conscious.

You don't, they don't put you under so you have to be counting backwards while their scalp is in your brain and they stopped but they stopped, they did too far. She became mentally like a two-year-old, never had bladder control for the rest of her life, couldn't really talk or walk and when that happened, they just put her away to some home and they never mentioned her again or they didn't tell the brothers or sisters where she went.

The lobotomy was only revealed in 1987 and they pretended, oh, she's in this home for her kids with special needs and it's just like, like that to me is very, very scary that someone could do this to their, that people, I saw people respond like, oh, that was cutting edge technology at the time, ha ha but I'm like, I don't think that that was really done that frequently or be hearing more about it, all these botched lobotomies and my understanding is lobotomies are very hard to, like they would wanna do them if someone's like a mass murderer or like if someone's really bad, like if the person's left an invalid, like who cares kind of situation but when you're dealing with something like this, like she's not killing people, she's not assaulting people, she's just difficult because she's making your vaunted family look bad so-- - So that's, to you, that's, what is that, like psychopathy or something like that, like you don't care about, you just, you do horrific things and you don't really care.

- I can't diagnose Joe Kennedy but what I would say, like if it's Jelaine Maxwell, I can't empathize because I don't understand, first of all, even in a positive sense, I don't know what it's like to be grooming my son to be the president and lost the other son in war, I don't know what that's like, I don't know what it's like to be so wealthy, like you have to give Joe Kennedy credit 'cause a lot of what he was fighting for was to allow Irish people and Catholic people acceptance into like high society and he was up against a lot of pressure with that and he's like, I'm gonna screw these people, I'm gonna be recognized and we're gonna make people recognized, so somebody said for that, but I mean, I can't relate to people like him.

- Yeah. - But I mean, that like, is just terrifying, like I mean, one of the big reasons I'm an anarchist is like when you have someone who has that sense of amount of power over somebody else, a lot of times they're gonna do bad things and have no consequences.

- Do you think in a, just like Maxwell case and Epstein case, do you think they were trying to blackmail people? Like trying, what the conspiracy theories kind of describe, that's probably not too far away from reality, did they intentionally try to put powerful people in compromising situations so that they can basically get more and more power?

- Yeah, I think that was a Vanity Fair piece that you're referring to or Fortune. - Oh, sorry, I'm just referring to general concept. - Oh, so there was an article that broke this down 'cause this article, it was either Fortune, Businessweek, Vanity Fair, I don't remember, a major, major reputable outlet and they made the report and made the point, they asked around and they go, this guy's a billionaire or extremely wealthy at least, no one I know ever traded with him, like where is his money coming from?

There's no paper trail. So they're like, okay, if it's not trading and trades are public often, where's his money coming from? And it's also like, why are all these people allowing Epstein to be their business manager when he has no kind of track record to show for it? So the hypothesis was he would get people into uncompromising situations with underage girls, secretly film it and then he would blackmail them accordingly.

- Well, I guess that's the question. - That would make sense. - I know it makes sense, but I also see a lot of evidence that he's just very charismatic in a room. And I've also seen, that's how human connections get made, like business deals get made. - Yeah, but where's his money coming from?

- Oh, like they, rich people without blackmailing just like him close, like him as a friend. - I'm not arguing that, like, okay, I like Jeff Epstein, make sure you pull that quote. - Yes. - I'm a business person, I like Jeff Epstein. - Michael Malice, I love Jeff.

- Like or love? - Love, I'm in love with. - This escalated quickly. - I'm gonna hand over him to be my money manager to have 20% of my estate fine. Where is he making the money for that 20%? That's the thing that there's no paper trail of him trading or anything.

So I can understand why. - Oh, I see, I see. - Yeah. - Interesting. - What were your 2020 favorite moments? - You mean 2021? - Yeah, 2021. - Time flies when you have a kid. - Yeah, yeah. - Clearly it's the Ghislaine Maxwell trial. It just really stands out to me, it's very moving.

This is why I bring it up. No. - Moving here. - So moving here, but for me, I think we actually didn't cover that with you and I'd love to get your comment. 'Cause you said it's for the first time in your life you moved. So it's not just about the place you go to, it's the actual act of moving is also a leap.

- Oh yeah. - The decision was that I'm going to give away my salary at MIT. So stop taking salary, give away the group. So students, no more research, the grant funding, and still keep an MIT affiliation just because I have friends and colleagues there still doing research, but giving away really primarily is the source of money.

So no salary and let it go to zero. Let my bank account go to zero. And take a leap in San Francisco or elsewhere. And as COVID broke out and a lot of people started talking to me about San Francisco, about the cynicism there. And I would go there and there was a kind of, so it's not all the woke stuff and all that kind of things, which is also a problem.

It's less about dreaming about a big future, about building a big future, and more about some kind of identity politic battles that they're just, you could say some aspect in the positive light is important, but in a place like Silicon Valley, to me, the most important thing is to do big things and for that to be most of the conversation.

And so that cynicism was there. And then I went to look at Austin and Austin was the opposite, it was the optimism. And you have people like, as I talked to, Elon was the optimistic about making this the capital of artificial intelligence and technology and so on. And then Mr.

Joe Rogan, now just the optimism about making this the cultural capital of the world, of, I mean, specifically comedy, but it just radiates from them, just the excitement. And I've seen not many people of that nature in my life. And when I see that in their eyes, that engine, that fire of wanting to create something special about the place, first of all, those people rarely fail.

That's first of all. And second of all, that's-- - It's contagious. - It's contagious. - Yes, very contagious. - And so all of that combined, for me, 2021 was the actual leap of taking the leap, saying, all right, well, I'm actually going to do this. So not just giving away the salary, not giving away all of that, but the whole thing.

That's it, you just move to a place, there's an empty building, you know, and you're moving into it, and this is a new life. And that leap, I don't know, it's a scary leap to take, because I've taken that leap many times in my life, and this is where parents and all those kinds of cynicism is really destructive, because from a cynical perspective, is I worked at Google, so why leave Google?

There's a very high-paying salary that you can have at Google. Then at MIT, why leave MIT? Like, it's MIT. This is, you've always dreamed about. Like, why do you get a PhD? You've loved MIT all your life, why leave MIT? I mean, this is the same process I've gone through with a lot of things in life.

Like, you've been saying every single stage, and you need that, you need friends, you need support groups, and all those kinds of things that are extremely important. But in the end, it's about taking the leap. And for me, 2021 was this leap. And to me, one of the most beautiful things you can do in life is to take those leaps.

- And that's something that I think is no longer a thing in New York. There's no sense of hope. You don't go to New York now. There's been such an assault, and intentionally or otherwise, maybe it's inevitable, they didn't have a choice, but there's been such an assault on creativity and small business in New York that no one, or very few people who are in New York right now think things are gonna get great soon.

Whereas here, I feel it's, every day is just something exciting that's gonna happen. - And that's part of the culture and how the conversation goes. It's just in vogue to be cynical in New York and San Francisco. I hope it changes 'cause what I love about New York and what I love about Austin also is the weirdos, the characters, just the variety of personalities that if you just walk around, you get to meet them.

And I think New York still has that, but it has the extra cynicism on top of it. That's a negative. I mean, just becoming friends with Joe, he inspired me to be nicer to people, to not take myself seriously, to be humble, to celebrate friends, not to be competitive.

Like all those things, since I started listening to his podcast from the very beginning, it just radiated from the guy. - The thing that people don't appreciate is Joe Rogan likes it when you bust his chops. I mean, a lot of people at that level, like if it's, "Oh, Mr.

Rogan, you're laughing," and everything they say, they don't want that. It's very phony and they feel uncomfortable 'cause they know that everything they say is hilarious. I remember I went with him, he was doing a performance here and I was, yeah, you were there. And he was doing his set and I'd reached the point now where I don't think of him as Joe Rogan.

You know, it's just like my buddy's doing standup, you forget. And then I looked at the audience and I remember, I'm like, "Oh, this is like a religious experience for these people." But you forget who he is 'cause he doesn't carry himself like a big shot. - Yeah, yeah.

And still, I mean, he gets competitive as fuck. Like I argue with him a lot. I mean, when I talked to Francis Collins and Pfizer CEO, you better believe I heard from Joe. And then we would just get super drunk and argue about it. So it's, I mean, it's beautiful.

And he gets really passionate. So it's not like easy to argue with him, but that's great. - When you don't take it personally, it's fun. - As you and I discussed, and I'm sure he wouldn't mind us saying this, but like that moment when you first get a text from Joe Rogan and it's some boomer meme, like I finally felt like I've arrived as a person.

- A boomer meme? What kind of boomer meme are we talking about? - Like he just sends some silly meme, but it's just like, this is the kind of thing you can imagine someone's uncle posting on Facebook. It's Joe Rogan texting it to you. - Yeah. I mean, for me also with Elon, obviously, there's a few people.

I'm just saying folks that people know. Also Jim Keller, who's worked with Elon. So I've had conversations with them, 'cause it's just my line of work. They're realizing that everything is possible in this world. - Yeah, yeah. Which is not the Russian mindset. - Yeah, well, okay. All right, let's-- - Start with Donald Nudge.

- Start with Donald Nudge. Yeah, it's what Elon calls first principles thinking, but really it's just not being limited by the constraints of the past. - Yes. - And so saying like, okay, this is how things have been done, but can be done much, much better. And that has to do with manufacture.

How do we do this 10 times cheaper? Like everyone says it's super expensive, but does it really need to be? This is more of a question about manufacture, about how to build a product, how to actually have a product that's scaled, that has an impact. And just having a very serious engineering, like to the level of physics, discussion about building a thing and fucking doing it and just being around people that did it.

And basically, literally or figuratively said, fuck you to everybody in the room that said they can't do it. And that energy. So that I've gotten to know Elon a lot better in 2021. That to me, it's like everything, the whole thing, that moving here and being surrounded by that optimistic energy, and then the individual interactions with people that refuse to be like brought down by the, yeah, the cynicism of the world.

The naysayers. That to me is what I'm gonna remember this year for. And I hope it like materializes into something concrete here in Austin. And I feel it's doing that. - I really am curious to be a fly on the wall. I'm sure it'll happen at some point, watching you and Elon talk to each other.

'Cause he's even more of a robot than you. He was on the Babylon Bee podcast, and I was honored to be able to be in the room while this was happening. And with the guys at the Bee do, at the end of every podcast, they have like 10 questions.

I don't think this, remember this was one of those. No, no, this, and they go to Elon, would you rather be Batman or Iron Man? 'Cause they're both like multimillionaire industrialists. And Elon being Elon is like, well, let's think this through. There's different kinds of bats. You've got fruit bats and you've got insect bats.

Why it's called Batman? Batman makes you fly, right? Bats can fly. And I'm just sitting there with the whole, like dude, just answer the question. (laughing) It was so literal. I was like, damn. - I guess by this point, I've released a podcast with him. That's several hours, and it's exactly as you would imagine.

- It's exactly as you would imagine. - There was this, did you watch the movie Her? - Yes, of course. - So there's that one scene, it's when, is it Joaquin, who's the lead character? - Yeah, Joaquin Phoenix. - Yeah, so he's the lead and he falls in love with Siri basically, who's played by Scarlett Johansson.

And there's another artificial AI that she's talking to. And she's like, oh, can I, permission to go into nonverbal communication with this professor? And the guy's like, sure. And they just start talking to each other in their robot. And I'm just imagining the two of you having this mind meld.

- Well, that, so there's both the humor of that, but also the practical nature of the kind of conversations you have. It's so great because it's problem solving mode. - Okay, yeah, yeah, okay. - It's so cool. - That is fun. That is exciting. - Because like you stop completing sentences.

I actually feel at home because you don't need to say the full sentences anymore. You could just like say random words and you start to understand what you're talking about. And then you can have multiple conversations at the same time and go on these tangents. One of the biggest problems I have with podcasting, for me, talking, I have to finish my sentences.

I have to actually finish making a point, which is a big problem. 'Cause there's like a listener that needs to hear the point being finished as opposed to completing your sentences inside your own mind. And like the thing I find is useful to, Elon does the exact same thing, is when the line of thinking is no longer useful, you just ran, you just switched to the next thing.

You just leave that whole thing behind. You don't need a nice transition. You don't need any of that. And also just, it's the first principles thing. It's like zooming in on the elephant in the room. I love that. It's so energizing. Just that's what I love about engineers. It's not the maybe most eloquent communication style, but I love it.

What about you? So you said moving. - The book. - The book. What else? And you've been really excited about, so that's "Anarchist Handbook," but you've also been nonstop excited about "White Bill." That was most of this year. You've been actually made significant progress. - Yeah, I'm on page 40 of the second draft.

And it's really kind of funny 'cause when you're doing your, I think, 10th book, I lost track already. The first draft is actually pretty good. I'm going back and like, "All right, this is gonna be a whole slog." I'm like, "Oh, I just have to cut and paste this "and basically tweak a few words." So I did a good job with the first draft.

It's also funny when you're writing how, and I guess this is the mark of a good professional writer. My personal feelings don't match how the characters in the book come off. Like I have a lot of fondness for people like Emma Goldman and Alexander Berkman and their early on in the book, but they're not good people.

And I'm writing it objectively and whatever, and I'm reading it, so I'm like, "They come off much worse than my personal appraisal of them." So it's kind of interesting as a writer when you're watching it, I guess kind of like an attorney, right? Like you can have a situation where you as an attorney, you have a lot of fondness for your client, but you realize that they probably did this thing, or you could not, it could be other way.

Like they're innocent, but it's hard for you to make a good case for them because the data's not there. - Can you actually talk about your writing process in several ways? So one, your writing process, but two, by way of advice of how to write. You've talked about in the past, like your first draft is these kind of disparate or more chaotic in that you don't, in the same way maybe I was saying in the engineering discussion, you don't complete the sentences.

It's just thoughts. - Yeah, so the first like real good writing advice I remember getting was this book by Peggy Noonan called "What I Saw at the Revolution." And she was a Ronald Reagan speechwriter. She still writes for the Wall Street Journal. The book I bought was at a used bookstore in Lewisburg, Pennsylvania when I was in college.

The spine is cocked, I still have it. It was 99 cents. And she talked, when you're writing for a president, this is no joke, especially for a president who's this great communicator, Reagan. And you have to be very inspirational, but also not come off as corny, which is very hard to do.

And she in the book talks about how she wrote speeches for him, how she, I'm paraphrasing her, and I haven't read her book in a couple of decades, but basically she would write like a brain dump and it's just garbage. And she was like, "That's okay. "Just get it all out there." And then there's that expression, "All writing is editing." So for the "White Pill" specifically, this is, I don't know if it's the most ambitious book I've ever done.

Your reader, I think, is more ambitious 'cause that's all of North Korea's history and it's written in somebody else's voice, not persons of Martian. - And you, like you mentioned, had to read a giant number of books. - Yes, 60 books as research, yeah. - Well, maybe can we just pause?

Can you say what "White Pill" is about? - Sure, it's about hope and it's a tale of good and evil. And I think that's, I don't wanna tip my hand too much. But people are always like, "How do you think, "why are you so hopeful?" And I'm not hopeful on an emotional level.

I'm hopeful because looking at history, I think there's certain things that will certainly happen again, but it's not at all implausible to happen again and that the good guys will win. And this is one of those cases. So, you know, I had, the book took on a life of its own.

It's very different from how I originally conceived it. I originally conceived it as a kind of retelling of Camus' philosophy. Ryan Holiday, who we used to be close friends with, I haven't talked to him in a while, he has a whole kind of cottage industry based on the Stoics of the past.

I'm like, "Okay, can I ask him once, "can I do this with Camus?" He said, "Sure." And then I reread Camus recently and it wasn't what I had remembered. - Oh, so can we pause on that? I apologize to interrupt. So it's interesting. So he kind of took ideas from Stoics and started to kind of use it as a book that gives you advice about how to live life from the Stoic perspectives.

And you were thinking, is there something in existentialism, absurdism, or something specifically in Camus' thinking? Or I think you've mentioned the myth of Sisyphus, specifically like his philosophical work. - Yeah. - So you were trying to see, like, is there, can I resurrect this? That's actually, I would think that's an interesting project.

And it's sad to hear that it didn't materialize in exactly that form 'cause I thought there would be a lot in that. - So I had Douglas Murray on my show and he also made the point, like, when you go back and read Camus, there's not that much there.

The myth of Sisyphus is not at all how I remembered it. The vast bulk of that book is like literary criticism. So he's talking about Dostoevsky and all these different people who are embodiments of the absurd. But I'm like, there's not much to take from here. This actual title essay is basically like a six-chapter essay at the back of the book, which it's good for what it is, but there's not that much there to draw.

I'm extremely, he's a great hero of mine. I think his life is just enormously admirable. He fought very hard against the Nazi occupation. His book, "The Plague," which I find unreadable, is an allegory about Germany conquering France and so on and so forth. - Wait a minute. Why is "The Plague" unreadable?

- It's the kind of book where reading the book doesn't add anything to the plot. The plot is a plague comes, sweeps over the town, destroys a lot of life, and vanishes as quickly as it came. You don't need to read the book now. Like, you get the point.

- I deeply disagree with you. Yes, of course I've read "The Plague." - To me, I mean, "The Plague" is about the doctor and it's about love and it's about the different roles that humans take in a time of tragedy like the plague. Also, it's an allegory. So you can start to think about what, whether it's Nazi Germany, whatever you think that is.

To me, though, that was about love and about the role, the highest ideal being the doctor that sacrifices themselves for others and still has love and hope. I mean, to me, the way that story is told, I think, has a lot of meaning. It's like, to me, you saying that, it's interesting you say it this way, but to me, it's like saying Animal Farm doesn't need to be read because it's an obvious story.

- I don't think there's much plot to "The Plague." I think Animal Farm has a very long plot and a complex plot. - But there's experiences within. So the situation is set up in plague and there's experiences that start to reveal a philosophy. So yeah, it's not very plot-driven.

So I would say you still should read it, but the plot doesn't, like you didn't give away anything currently to me. So some books are just, I mean, "Ayn Rand" is similar to that in a sense. Like the plot is not as important as the behavior of the different people in that plot.

- I think she's very plot-heavy. - No, she has plot, but I'm saying that's not necessarily the important thing. To me, the behavior of the people is the important thing. - Sure, but-- - You could like separate it into a bunch of blog posts and they stand on their own.

I would have to think about that with "Ayn Rand." She does, through the plot, create a world where you start to understand the different values that people have. But yeah. But that's what the plot serves. Yeah, I would have to think. But in "The Plague," it's the behavior of the people that's really important.

In the same, I mean, "The Stranger," too. I mean, these like, I'm trying to scramble here for books I really appreciate that don't have a plot. I mean, "Notes from Underground." So obviously, Dostoevsky has a huge amount of plot in most of his work. Herman Hesse has a huge amount of plot.

- Thomas Mann doesn't have the plot. He's the one who doesn't have plots. - Thomas Mann. Would you say Kafka has a plot? - I think Kafka's very heavy plot-driven. - Yeah, but I just don't see that, I guess-- - I guess "Metamorphosis" doesn't really have a plot. - Yeah, but there's like crawling around.

- But it's like a vignette. It's not really like-- - It's a short, yeah. "The Hunger Artist," one of my probably favorite short stories is that kind of a short story. It's a pretty long short story of Kafka's. It's really interesting. It's about a man, I don't know if you read it.

- No, I don't think so. - It's about a man that is like a freak in a sense that his skill is that he can fast for a long time, and then people gather on the cage and look at him as he fasts. I don't actually remember if he's in a cage or not.

And eventually, he fasts so long that people don't even care anymore. Like, they just leave. So there's a, it has to do something. It makes me think about like, don't become, the way you live, don't become like a freak show, a circus act. Like, live for an ideal, live for something that brings you joy.

- Or don't live for the sake of attention. - For the sake of attention, that's what you put. - Yeah, that's, yeah. - Yeah, anyway, so I rudely interrupted 'cause you were talking about the plague and connecting it to the writing process of "White Pill." - Yeah, well, anyway, so how I was writing this one, I just had a first draft of notes, and it's not in chronological order.

It's like, I read certain books as research, and then I had the pull quotes that was necessary there. And now I'm basically rearranging everything and putting it, so the book started as Ryan Holiday's-- - Right. - Sequel to Ryan Holiday as "Caboo." The working title would have been "The Point of Tears" because there's this, Caboo's a great quote maker, and he has this line about, "Man must live, "live to the point of tears," which I think is just, what I love about him is, Caboo, he always comes off as like he's clenching his teeth.

He's clenching his teeth both in terms of like barely mitigated rage at injustice, like when he sees people suffering, it just really makes him just upset to the core. But also this sense of not taking life for granted and kind of just pushing yourself and pushing the boundaries, and his point being that life is inherently meaningless, which gives a great opportunity to impute meaning to it, to create our own meaning to life.

- So taking the main essay from "Myth of Sisyphus," that was the origin story for "The White Pill," but then it became something completely different. - And so then it became, how are you so optimistic in the face of everything that's going on in the world? And I started writing it when COVID started hitting.

And 'cause again, I'm not optimistic 'cause of some temperament of mine. I'm optimistic because people talk about how, oh, if the US didn't exist, China would just become an empire and take over everything. Empires are expensive, and they, like look at the British empire, look at the Soviet Union.

It's not automatically sustainable. It costs a lot of things to make sure when you're geographically all over the world, literally, to keep everyone in line. It's not at all like a super villain movie. Once it happens, it's the happy ending for them. So yeah, that was the start. And I'm like, all right, let me tell, one thing I'm good at is telling stories.

So this is really a-- - So this is narrative plot driven. - Very, very plot driven. And also heavily character driven, but the characters are real. - Yeah, got it. So it's interesting to kind of mention, what does the first draft kind of look like in terms of what kind of things do you plop down?

- Oh, so it'll be like, let's suppose I just read some book called "The Guillotine at Work," which was an early book attacking Lenin from the anarcho-communist perspective. So it'll just be like all the different quotes, like a paragraph here, double space, another paragraph, blah, blah, blah, so on and so forth.

Whereas for other sections where I wasn't just using the book as research, there would be like talking about McKinley getting shot. Like it's just me writing the narrative and that I could just pretty much copy paste into the second draft. - By way of advice, would you give that as advice?

Is that a good way to do it? Is that a very peculiar way your brain works? - No, so this is actually advice I feel comfortable giving to people who are trying to write. Because it's just like with the gym, right? If you did seven sets, seven, excuse me, reps last week, and you did eight this week, it's psychologically motivating 'cause you're going in the right direction and the human mind extrapolates.

So make sure, tell yourself, I'm gonna get a page done today or two pages done. Sit your ass in front of the computer, you're not allowed to get up until you get those two pages. It doesn't matter if they look at garbage because if you have a 300 page first draft and it's crap, at least you have something to work with and that's a big number.

So if you're gonna, the thing is, since the first draft is gonna be crap, if you're editing as you write, it's gonna be extremely discouraging. And it's also trying to drive and then doing reverse at the same time. It's a completely nonsensical way to do it. Get it all out there, don't look it over.

If you have a great line, put it in your phone and then add it to the draft. So it'll be a complete slog, but editing that slog is gonna be a lot easier than creating it to begin with. - And when you see those disparate lines all laid out on the page, how difficult is it to then start stitching it together?

Do you find that when you look at a list of those things, the final product will look very different? - Yes. - Or will you actually use those lines? - No, I will use those lines. Then I have a file called scraps. So if the line's no longer used, I put it in my scrap pile.

- I'd love to see what's in the scrap pile. - Okay, yeah, sure. One of the things I've been pulling scraps is a lot of times when I was earlier writing, I would have contemporary references. And I realized that that's bad because I want the reader to be in the past as the present.

So if you're talking about, let's say 1901, and then you're referring to Obama, that screws people up, so I had to pull all those. - Okay, let's talk about some New Year's resolutions. You ever do New Year's resolutions? You ever think like that? Like take a special day in the year to think about how you're gonna try to change yourself?

Do you try to transform yourself every single day when you wake up? - Well, I usually have several projects I'm working on at once, so there's always incremental progress on those. - It's nice to have a deadline. By the end of 2022, I'll accomplish this. - Kind of like to hold yourself responsible.

And then you could do that at the beginning of the year to think about that. Both philosophically, like what kind of big, not projects that you can quantify, but more like how can I change my life? Or like I mentioned, take the leap of different kinds. And then there's specific things like finish the book.

- Years ago, and I think on some level, you much less than me, but I think you're increasing in this direction. I realized I have to learn how to be a surfer and not a driver. Because when you reach the level we're at in our careers or in our place in the culture, a lot of this is luck.

And a lot of this is just like, I'm just going along for the ride because it's kind of counterintuitive. Like the success of the "Anarchist Handbook" was counterintuitive. So all I'm hoping for is getting the book done. I am extremely proud of it. And just also building a, we had Thanksgiving together at Blair's house, just building a great upcoming community here in Austin, which has happened very quickly.

There's gonna be another surprise here. There's a girl named Natalie Sidesurf and she makes these ultra realistic cakes. Like if you've seen those cakes online where it looks like you're cutting a puppy, like she makes those kinds of things. So she's here. - In Austin? - Yeah. - Oh cool, like moved permanently?

- I think she's been here for a while. I've never, I haven't met her yet, but I just kind of chatted with her. So there's just so many scenes happening here that are overlapping. - So in general, finish the book, keep building your community. I mean, you've already been doing that here.

You've been here several months. - I've been making a point to introduce people to each other and everyone's just really getting along very well. - That's great. And the book is the focus. - The book is the focus. - What about the podcast that you're doing? You're welcome. - Yeah, I mean, I enjoy it and it's been growing a lot.

I finally got a new computer, which my friend Jay installed so I can have a decent camera 'cause of my old, this is my mindset as a hoarder. Like I was more interested in spending money on a Pareto autograph than actually getting a computer that's from the 20th century.

But I'm such an old school person in that in my head, podcasts are like so ephemeral. There's some episodes of my podcast I'm really proud of. And there's a lot of friendships I've made as a result of it that really mean a lot to me, no question. It's made my life a profoundly better place.

But it's not the same as that book on the shelf, especially when the book is something that I think matters much more than I do. - Yeah, there's a permanence to it. There's a seriousness to laying down the words on paper, like really giving them thought. - Yeah. - That's true.

But I'm a huge fan of podcasts. - You don't listen to podcasts much, which is fascinating to-- - Yeah, like at all. And I don't know how mine is so successful. It's just, yeah. - Yeah, yeah, I just love the medium. I love the authenticity, the realness of the medium.

That's really nice. - I just understood for the, it's starting to click because like my pal Blair White, she was just done Rogan. And the first 10 minutes, I was so angry. Like I was sitting there like yelling at the screen 'cause Joe and Blair, you would think that they're gonna start talking about Trump or trans issues or moving to Austin.

They start talking about shark reproduction and neither of these dumbasses knew anything about it. And I know a lot about it. And they're like, "Oh, is it like this? "Oh, do the sharks lay eggs?" And I'm sitting there, I'm like, "If you don't know why you're talking about this, why?

"Why are you talking?" And I could also see why people like these shows 'cause they feel like they're friends with the people, like they're sitting in the room. 'Cause I felt like I was in that room and I wanted to shake both of them. - You're in the room.

So now what about transforming yourself? Any resolutions like that? - Oh, I'm doing a slight bulk now. So I'm almost at my heaviest weight ever, but I couldn't go to the gym this week 'cause I was a little under weather. So that's a little frustrating, but yeah. - So are we gonna get some more modeling pics?

What are we, what's, is there goals there? - So my heaviest, I'm 4'8". The heaviest I've ever been was when, and this is when I was like-- - He's exaggerating, he's not that tall. - That's the metric. - Oh, sorry, are you talking about your height? - Yeah. - 4'8"?

Okay. - Yeah. - Barely 4'6". - So the heaviest I've ever been when I was like really high body fat, 'cause I was just, 'cause I learned, 'cause I couldn't gain weight as a kid. So when I figured out I could actually gain weight, I like, I was 164.5.

So I wanna hit 165 and then see, take it from there. I have a friend who's been helping me, my buddy Trey Goff, and this kid's stronger, his, Jake, his username on Instagram is stronger, both the number five instead of the letter. - Nice. - The number five instead of the letter S, but he does, I've never, it looks like it's Photoshop, like your brain can't process it.

You know the human flag? - No, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, sorry. - But he does human flag pushups. - Wow. - So he is horizontal, parallel to the ground, right? He's holding himself up like a flag, but he could also do this while, so he's moving parallel to the earth, side to side while, it's just crazy.

- That's really difficult. So you're interested in that kind of stuff? - No, but I'm saying like he's been helping me out, so like the guy knows what he's doing. He's just a really impressive kid. - I love that kind of stuff, like body weight stuff. So my primary mode of working out is very like the, you ever seen Leon, like the professional that, with Natalie Portman, that movie?

- Yeah. - It's like I have a pull-up thing, I just do pushups and pull-ups. It's very like I'm just missing the milk. I like working out at home just like that. And the body weight stuff, you can go so much with it, and it's super functional for everything else you live in, for life, for living life well.

- I'm on the other hand, I don't care about functionality. The thing that really bothers me, like I go, I know Joe's thinking of opening up a gym, like a private gym. There's only like one power cage here at the Gold's I go to. I don't know what source, if there's only one, or that sometimes people aren't using it.

I'm like, no one's doing deadlifts in here, no one, just me. It's Gold's. - By the way, I don't wanna say where, I'll tell you off, but there's a few really like ghetto places around Austin that are just like these shitty gyms that nobody wants to go to, but they have a rack, they have like, if you wanna lift heavy, that kind of stuff.

- But I lay 24 hours, that's the thing, Gold's. - Oh, but there are 24 hours in the following way. There's a code, and you just go in, and you turn on the lights, and then you work out. - I don't wanna meet people. - Exactly, well-- - That's just not true.

- Sometimes there's people and they're great. - Yeah, and I've had fans come up to me at Gold's and they've all been cool, except, except. - Oh no. - Except. - Except. - If I have my headphones on, and I'm doing deadlifts, I don't need you to come over, tap my ear, and start giving me critiques about my form.

- This actually happened? - Yes. I'm still angry about it. I'm pulling my 150 in peace, thank you. - Yeah, people are hilarious. I was recently in, actually the wildest day ever in my life. So many things happened in a row. So I went to a wedding in LA.

- Andrew? - Andrew Schultz's. And with Whitney Cummings and Joe Rogan and a bunch of other fascinating people. It's just, speaking of weirdos, there's the comedian. The reason I find the comedians awesome, one, they're authentic, they're just cool people. But they're also just weird. You don't become a comedian for not being fucked up in all kinds of different interesting ways.

Anyway, so there's the wedding. I'm, you know me, it was only carbs at the wedding. So I didn't eat, I didn't eat for a long time. So I was already fasted 20 hours, 25 hours. So this whole story of everything that happens is Lex 40 hours fasted with Joe Rogan drinking a lot of whiskey.

And so-- - You were drinking too? - Oh, heavy. - On 40, oh my God, that's crazy. - So it is calories. That was my only source of calories, the whiskey. And I, so I didn't trust myself with carbs when I'm drunk. I just don't enjoy it 'cause I'll forget.

And I just enjoy eating a strict, healthy diet when I'm drunk because I'd rather eat more food that's healthy versus not. And so anyway, so then we went to Vegas together. And then just kept doing wild thing after, another wild thing. Rogan opened up for Wendy Cummings. He just showed up at a random party that he wasn't invited and he did a thing.

He almost started a fight 'cause some guys said, stopped, yelled at him, said, "Stop spreading misinformation." And then we run into David Goggins. This is my first time meeting David Goggins. I've talked to David a lot over the phone and we were supposed to do a thing together. And this is me trashed out of my mind meeting David for the first time with his incredible wife, Rogan's wife was there.

By the way, Joe Rogan's wife, David's wife, made me realize that I really wanna be married because they're not, they make their partners better. - Yeah. - Like that, I was, there's a certain aspect of marriage that I'm afraid of that like your partner takes you away from life.

You don't get to experience life as much. But this was like, they were enriching them. I don't know, it was like the world's most powerful support group, it was cool. Anyway, so then of course, Drunk Lex is challenges Goggins to pushups. - I saw this on Instagram with everyone.

- So we're in the middle of the-- - And you in your suit. - In the suit, in the middle of casino, there's a crowd gathering. It's Joe Rogan, me and David Goggins, and I'm just doing pushups with them. And Rogan is like commentating and yelling and screaming. It was surreal.

And just going on to the next thing and next thing and next thing like this. And then drove all the way from Vegas back to LA with Joe and Whitney and his wife. And it was like, what is this? And all of it is done in 24 hours. The one valuable lesson is don't fast and drink like excessively.

So I've learned that. Because what happens is liquor hits your mind, my mind, sorry, I'll speak about my particular mind. Like the intellectual part of my brain got hit really hard, really fast. So I was not able to even more so than usual stitch together sentences. I understood everyone really well.

- So like major and immigrant again. (speaking in foreign language) - So like meeting David, I wanna say so many things. He's so inspiring to me, right? But all I said was like, hello. And I remember opening my mouth to try to say more and I was like, and then I would just close my mouth and not be able to say anymore.

- This is one of the reasons I don't drink ever. - It removes certain barriers. Like it allows you to maybe have fun that you wouldn't otherwise. But yeah, definitely for a person who values intellectual eloquence. - But I also hate being hungover. - The hungover part, yeah. - That's the worst.

- Yeah, it's the worst. - I feel like I did this to myself. - Yeah. But it also teaches me that this too shall pass because I've been hungover and I've quit drinking so many times in my life that it makes you realize that all the unpleasant feelings, all you have to do is just wait it out and be fine.

- It took me a long time to realize that that expression means the other thing. - What's the other thing? - If things are going great, this too shall pass. - Yeah. - I always thought about it. - Life of suffering. - No, I always thought about it as being more like, don't worry if things are bad, it'll pass.

It's also like if something's going great, it's not gonna be this way forever. - It's like Bukowski said, "Love is a fog "that fades with the first daylight of reality." (inhales and exhales) Do you think love can last? - Oh yeah, we're gonna win. - Who's we? - The good guys.

- Didn't Hitler also think he was the good guys? - He was wrong. (laughs) 'Cause you know why? - Why? - He didn't win. (laughs) - So you think it's permanent. So this one time, the good guy's winning, it'll last. It won't pass. 'Cause I think all of it passes, unfortunately.

- I think we're going to win and win big in the not so distant future. - Do you have specific things in mind or no? Or just a sense about human civilization, about society waking up? - I don't know about waking up, but I think the increased understanding on all sides of the political spectrum that corporate America and corporate news outlets are self-motivated actors, and those motivations are often inimical to what others would regard as desirable, is something that I think is happening with increasing frequency.

- So what do you think about the political landscape in general? You had a great conversation with Glenn Beck, and he said that he talked to Trump and believes that Donald Trump is definitely running in 2024 or very likely running in 2024. I think he said he thinks he'll have a good chance of winning, or I don't remember that.

But the fact that he was running was a surprise to you. Do you think Donald Trump would be running in 2024? - Given that Glenn Beck has a much better relationship with Trump than I do, to put it mildly, if Glenn Beck is certain this is gonna happen, I would defer to Glenn Beck's judgment.

- Do you think he has a chance of winning? Do you think he'll win? - Anyone in a binary political system who's the nominee has a chance. Like whoever the Republican, Democrat, has a chance. I think also it's a lot easier to vote for someone that you have voted for in the past.

So that's why incumbents have a big advantage. It's not that psychological barrier to cover. I think it's also useful for Trump that he's banished from social media because then he doesn't have to have the responsibility of governing and all the costs of that. 'Cause no matter what decisions you make while governing, some people aren't gonna like that.

So he gets to kind of be above the radar or below the radar rather to some extent. I don't think it's at all a given that he would get the nomination. When I say the good guys are gonna win, I certainly don't mean Donald Trump. I don't think victory is gonna come as a consequence of Washington.

- Do you wanna make America great again? - I think America is great. - This is my failed attempt at humor. - One of many. There are also hats that Giuliani and Jim Jeffords wore that said, people can look this up, they said, 'cause they were south of the border, make Mexico great again also.

(laughing) Like that to me, it was like, it's like, mwah. Like just the syntax there. - Okay. So you don't even think he might get the nomination. If you, who else might? - I mean, if you had asked two years, three years out who the nominee in 2020 would be, Donald Trump wasn't even, or 2016 rather, wasn't even on the radar screen.

So we have a long way to go. - Even two years is a long way to go? - Yeah. Especially 'cause we're coming out of COVID, there might be some governor who becomes a rockstar for some reason. Maybe someone's gonna have some moment, some congressman might have some big moment where they're screaming at somebody and all of a sudden they become a rockstar in the Republican Party.

- Or could be one of the celebrities we don't think about. I mean, Donald Trump is essentially not a political figure before he ran. So it could be any of the famous, right-leaning celebrities. I don't even know which way McConaughey leans. - No, I think he's a lefty, or he was gonna run as a Democrat, but he's not running.

- But people like that just might step into the ring. - Yeah, I don't think they'd have that much of a chance 'cause I think the Republican Party, there's an asymmetry. They'd be much more skeptical of an actor than the Democrats would be because they would regard that actor as coming as a kind of mentoring candidate or whatever.

- Right, but there's other kinds of celebrities, like Jocko could run as a Republican. - That's a good example, yeah, yeah. - That would be interesting, so a military person. - Right, yeah. But already, for example, Dr. Oz is thinking of running for, is going to run for the Senate in Pennsylvania, and there's already been a lot of research, people slamming him on Twitter and social media for past positions he's taken.

DeSantis is the figure of the moment, but Scott Walker was the figure of the moment in the 2016 cycle, and he didn't even make it to Iowa. - Yeah, and I wonder what role does COVID play in all of this in terms of, I'm mostly optimistic and hopeful about the world.

When I look at the world, I'm excited by most things. I've been a little bit or a lot disappointed by the lack of great leadership in a time of trouble 'cause to me, one of the great things about a difficult time is it brings out the great leaders. Again, it's the up and down things, like you don't wanna ask for war, you don't wanna ask for pandemics, but when they happen, it's a great opportunity for the human spirit to flourish, and the fact that it didn't quite in the way that I hoped it would is disappointing.

I think there's still time, too, 'cause people are trying to figure out what to do as we emerge from the fog. So I'm excited by 2020. For somebody said this dark, cynical thing, I hope this is not true, but that there was some doubt about the results of the election in 2020 that in 2024, both sides, it'll just start becoming standard to completely reject the results of an election no matter who wins.

- Well, that's my perspective. I don't regard elections as legitimate, and I see what you're saying, not in the terms of, basically, the process itself was illegitimate. - Yes, so there's cheating or something. - Yeah, but I think that that's pretty much a given. It has been a given.

The Republicans often say, "Oh, they got all these illegals to vote," or the Democrats will say, "The voting machines were hacked," or the media, so on and so forth, because despite all the people flapping their gums about democracy, they only like democracy when it gives them the results that they want.

- Can I ask you about something else that Glenn Beck said that I thought was really interesting? I agree with him very much on this. And it was refreshing to hear, although he kind of made it, turned it into a point about why Trump is great or whatever, but the point was the following, which is he doesn't want to talk to anybody who can't say at least one nice thing about everyone.

So if you don't like Donald Trump, if you don't like Joe Biden, you should still be able to say one nice thing, like legitimate, nice, not just a dismissive nice thing, but legitimately say what is one nice thing they did or who they are as a person, not like saying Donald Trump is funny sometimes, like no, legitimate, where you really mean it.

And it's been really troubling to me how few people are able to do that about political figures. I had a lot of people, I think I tweeted something like this leading up to the election, saying like, you should be able to say something nice about both Joe Biden and Donald Trump.

And I've had old friends, I don't want to say specific, I guess, to call them out, but several people, one in particular wrote me this long, several page email. - It was Sam? - It was Sam Harris. - Was it Sam Harris? - Sam Harris. No. I have a lot of conversations with Sam Harris now and Joe on both sides.

It's like the devil and the angel on both my, I don't know which one is which, but. - Joe's the angel. - They're both devils. - Different kinds of devils, yeah, that's fair. - And they said, how could you say, how could you even consider that there's something positive about Donald Trump?

- Yeah, here's an easy one. He has three wives with three kids with each, but the kids get along. I think that's really commendable that Donald Trump Jr. and Eric Trump and Barron can all get along with each other, given the circumstances. I think that speaks to someone as a father, Ivanka.

- So on the family level, and I see the same thing with actually, one of the reasons I always found Joe Biden fascinating is he's had a lot of really traumatic things happen in his life. - Yeah. - And-- - If I shit my pants in front of the Pope, I'd be traumatized too.

- I'm talking to a master troll about something sensitive and beautiful that is a man suffering with a loss. - I kinda know what he feels like right now. I'm pretending to the Pope. This chair's ruined. Sorry, Elon. (laughing) You're gonna have to sit in it. - Well, why does this chair feel kinda like I'm sitting in a swamp?

Look, you have stuff to show, can't you afford a chair? I'll send you one for Tesla. - That's a pretty good Elon impression. But yeah, I mean, like one criticism I tell Joe, Rogan is like, he has trouble finding one positive thing to say about Joe Biden, for example.

And I just don't like that. I think, I mean, I'm a big believer in the shit sandwich, sticking on topics. - Here's an easy one. I think Joe Biden clearly is a very amiable person. - What's amiable? - He gets along with people. Like it seems really clear that maybe before president, 'cause it's different when you're the president, but that he could call a lot of these Republican senators, get them on the phone and have a conversation with them.

- Yeah, and it's not some kind of manipulation. - To some extent it is, 'cause they're all politicians. But he clearly seemed to be able to get, wasn't like an ideologue. - Yeah, yeah. I mean, but there's, I mean, maybe I'm a sucker for that kind of thing, but the blue collar thing, like riding the train, you know, there's ways to connect with people and not, it's seeing them as equals, no matter where their walks of life are.

And I love it when presidents do that. To some degree, because of the wealth under which Donald Trump existed for a lot of his recent life, he's less able to do that quite naturally. Maybe sometimes Obama wasn't quite able to do that. - That's a good question. Who's more blue collar, Trump or Biden?

And you can easily make the case for both, I think. - You could. Not the blue collar, but like literally be able to fit in at a bar, at a local bar and just like-- - I can see both of them. - Yeah, you're right. I could see both of them.

- Yeah. - In fact, Obama doesn't quite. - No, 'cause he's got that Ivy League thing. - Yeah, the Ivy League thing. - Yeah, yeah. - Yeah, you're right. Somehow Donald Trump can too. - No, easily, yeah. You can see him having a beer with the guys and yelling at the screen, "This is bullshit, change the channel." - Yeah, I hope people do that.

I think that's one of the most unpleasant things to me is they're not able to empathize with the fact that half the country voted for another person. - Well, it's also then, it's just a bad strategy. If you can't figure out why half the country is voting for someone you guard as like a demon, well then how are you gonna supposed to fight this demon?

Like when I did your reader, the North Korea book, it's like don't you wanna understand how these people get to where they got? And no one's saying that he's a good person, but like there's a logic to their, there's a method to their madness. - You've talked about national divorce a few times.

I've seen a couple of videos recently where you're responding to articles. It's kinda cool. Can you talk about this idea of national divorce and as it stands today, arguing for it maybe? And if you could, just out of curiosity in the context of those videos, if you can steal men and argument against national divorce.

- So I was the first one to kind of bring this issue back into the national conversation. I wrote a piece for Observer in 2016. Then Jesse Kelly had a piece a few months after that. Dave Urboy just recently did a piece on his dub stack earlier this year.

And it's become enough of a mainstreamed idea that paleontology outlets like the National Review have felt the need to respond to them. So the point being that America has had at least two cultures since the beginning and that there's absolutely no reason, and these cultures in recent years, and this was in 2016, not mentioned 2021, have been increasingly antagonistic toward one another and have even lost the ability to communicate.

They're using language in different ways and that there's no reason for this to continue any further. And just, you live your life, we'll live ours and goodbye and good luck, no ill will. Now there's lots of arguments against them. Some of those are completely, I think, stupid. The stupidest one is, well, that's what China wants.

- Okay, well, I mean, I'm not going to live my life saying, I'm just gonna do the opposite of whatever China wants. That's not logic, that's not a good pathway. Now, I'm not saying they're right or wrong, but that's not a reason one way or another. - Yeah, you bring up China or Russia, that's exactly what China or Russia want.

But sort of the strong way to phrase that is it weakens America, like not just the one America, but like both sides in the divorce will be much weaker than they individually were together. So in that sense, not that you have to care about what China thinks, but like it's a big step backwards.

- Yes, I think in the short term, it is absolutely a big step backwards in terms of power. There's no question that, when you're trying to reestablish a society, there's gonna be a transition period. That transition period is gonna be costly. Each side starts wondering, wait a minute, why are we still doing this?

We don't have to anymore, we're not living with them, so on and so forth. So that's gonna be a concern. I don't think that the whole point of America or even a large primary point of America is to be a bulwark against Chinese power. And there's gonna be very few people on earth, given my work, who have as much informed hatred and contempt for the Chinese government as I do.

Certainly, next to the North Korean people, maybe the people from Eritrea, there's few populations who I'm as worried about as the people under the rule of the Red Chinese. My steel man argument is, there's no way this is gonna be peaceful, 'cause the lines don't separate out well. So all you're doing is basically just replicating the problem because the disparity isn't between, like during the Civil War, North and South, it's like it's between New York City and upstate New York, or between Chicago, downstate Chicago.

Once you get outside of LA and Sacramento, California in many ways is like Kentucky, so it doesn't make sense. So that's a strong argument. - Yeah, I mean, you've talked about that this process will be painful. - Right. - It can be painful. And we're not just talking about violence.

It could be just, even the Civil War, you could divide it somewhat cleanly. Obviously, the kind of national divorce you might be suggesting is, yeah, people are living amongst each other, so you have to literally move, it's complicated. - Right, so that is a very strong argument. I think a cogent argument against it.

Two is, it's not just China, it's that there's a lot of bad actors in the world who maybe aren't, like China certainly wants to carry itself and have an appearance, at least on the world stage, as civilized and a leader. There's lots of smaller countries who, without us, are gonna feel comfortable doing some very nefarious things.

And they're not gonna be scared of us anymore. And so that would be a bigger concern in many regards than China. So I think that's a reasonable one. It could be that both sides, if this happens, are gonna, instead of work toward better, the things that make each side bad would get worse.

- Yeah. - And that's, you know, having those push towards the malevolent extremes is, I think, a very legitimate criticism and a concern. - I mean, as you suggested, there's no guarantee that won't happen. - Correct, at all. Also, there's, I think, a reasonable argument to make is like, are you, America, just as a symbol and the myth of America, and I don't mean myth in a negative sense, do you really wanna throw that in the garbage?

Like, this meant a lot for a lot of people and a lot for history. You're just gonna be like, okay, good work. We're done here, let's shut the lights. So that's, I think, a reasonable argument. So those are the biggest ones, I would say. - And still, what is the case for national divorce and along which lines?

So like, in making the case for national divorce, if it is desired, based on which kind of ideas do you think it should be carried through? - Honestly, I don't know that it has to be idea-based. Like, for example, when Czechoslovakia broke up, when Norway and Sweden broke up, it wasn't really ideological.

It was more cultural. So I always say divorce into two, but it would probably make more sense if it was like five, because the Northeast, certainly New England, has their own culture. The West Coast has their own kind of culture. I don't know, the thing is, any kind of persuasion technique, right, like, once people are start, there's a difference between convincing someone they wanna buy a car and what features you want.

So if you're at the point where we're arguing about the features, then my work here is done. Do you know what I mean? Like, I don't have a dog in the fight in terms of what it's gonna look like. I just wanna get to the point where you're at least considering seriously the idea of breaking up America.

And I would encourage people to go look at my article to see, which I'm sure the arguments still hold, five years later. - Do you have a kind of vision of which of the two or which of the five, like, do you actually have specific cultures or ideas? - I'll tell you exactly.

- Yeah. - If I told you and everyone listening in 2014, we weren't that long ago, it was not long ago, which of these two things is more likely to happen? 2014, Texas secedes or declares secession from America or Donald Trump gets elected president. Everyone's voting for Texas, like, in terms of prediction, which is more likely?

So we had this one. So it's not at all unlikely we're gonna have this one. - I don't know if that logic carries through. You can't just say, "Here's an unlikely thing that happened, "therefore, anything can happen." - I just said, you just earlier said anything could happen this episode, didn't you?

- Life is suffering. I wasn't listening to half the things you're saying. - You said it! - I said it? - Yes, you said anything could happen. - I'm definitely not, I'm like you with podcasts. I do a podcast, but I don't listen to it. - It's 'cause I'm talking.

- That's why I'm talking. Okay, so yeah, yeah, it can happen, but in which, I guess I'm asking, would you stay in Texas? - 100%. - And I'd run for office probably, it'd be fun. I'm gonna be the first president of Texas. - I attended a debate between Yoram Brooks and Yoram Hazony, I don't know if you know who that is.

- The nationalist guy. - Yeah, he wrote a book called "The Virtue of Nationalism." - Yeah, I read that book. - And they actually did a podcast with him, they did a debate. - Oh, they both run here? Okay. - It was quite interesting, and I tried to wear my Michael Malice hat.

- You're wearing it now. You borrowed that from me. - Yeah. It's funny, 'cause the metaphor applies across all of these level of collectivism. So he was arguing for the power of nation, so he would be arguing against national divorce, but he was also arguing for marriage, the power of actual marriage between individuals.

I think he's a conservative, and what I really like about him is there's a clear philosophy of conservatism that he expresses, and I think a lot of people get behind that philosophy, 'cause to me, conservatism and liberalism often is very used loosely. He has a clear philosophy that he's expressing there, and it's grounded in tradition.

He has a lot of value in tradition, and so it's the thing you said about America, like one of the arguments against national divorce is like, listen, we've been at it for a while. There is a lot of value in the fact that we've been at it for a while.

Don't just throw it all away all the time. So he says philosophically, he seems, in a lot of walks of life, revolution should be avoided as much as possible. - I agree. - And so it's kind of interesting. So he makes the case that there's something fundamentally powerful about the nation, that it's a nice way to group a culture, and so the national divorce, I guess, goes against that.

Do you find some aspect of the virtue of nationalism, as you would put it, powerful? - Well, powerful in a good sense? - In a good sense, so sorry, yeah, in a good sense. It brings out the best in humans. - I don't know about the best, but it certainly brings out good things.

I have that line I always say about I love my country. I hate the government because I love my country. - Yeah, so there is a love of country. - I think it's, but I don't know that that's the, I think it's also the case because the country happens to be America.

Like, I don't know if I was living in, you know, whatever, I don't wanna insult someone's country. Canada, yeah, if I was living in Canada, I don't know that it'd be the ultra patriot. - This is a guy who calls basically every other country shithole country. - Yeah, that's true, that's the fact.

- Yeah, so it's either, you're either, there's two types of countries, Texas or shitholes. - Oh, wow, you went full Texas. So you're okay burning the Northeast to the ground at this point. - Okay, I'm hoping for it. - I'm hoping. - What they've done to New York City, I will never forgive these people.

And I hope that they suffer enormously consequences for what they've done to New York. It's unforgettable, the assault that they've done and had no remorse over how many creative outlets that they've destroyed. - Yeah, it's the cultural hub, cultural center of the world in many ways. - New York was the, this was the place where you go to put up your shingle and move the needle and make things happen.

And I would understand if it was like, okay, we gotta suffer through this for a year, but we're gonna make sure all these businesses have a kind of safety net to make sure that they kind of get through and survive this, which they did to the banks in 2008, for example.

And I'm saying this as an anarchist and there was none of that. So I burn it down and salt the earth. 'Cause it's like watching like a zombie. It's unnatural, it's an abomination. - So I mean, sort of on the white pill side of things, I don't know about you, maybe, I have a sense that both Silicon Valley, that for me personally, maybe I have the same intensity of feeling as you do about New York.

It's just disappointing to see it be consumed with cynicism and a lot of other paralyzing forces, but I still have hope for that place. I think maybe it's the Yoram kind of tradition hope that through momentum, the strong reemerges. So like I have hope for New York. I think New York will continue, like not maybe on a scale of years, but on a scale of decades, it'd be ups and downs where it reemerges as a cultural center.

I just can't imagine a place like New York, it's like Paris. There's going to be long stretches of time where it leads the world. - Paris has not been a cultural hub for a very long time. - Yeah, yeah. - You know, the days of Matisse and Picasso and Gertrude Stein are long gone.

- It still is a hub. - Even London isn't London. - Yeah. But what is then? London is still London. Paris is still Paris. It's just not the Paris of old. It's not London of old. London is still a place. It's a tech hub. It's a fashion hub. It's a music hub.

I mean, it's still a pretty strong hub. - Yeah, but not like during the Beatles era. - Right. - Or during the Sex Pistols era. - But it could be just us romanticizing the past. 'Cause what is a hub then? - No, it's not romanticizing the past because a hub is the place where everyone on earth or our eyes are on you.

So in the late '60s, in the mid '60s, you see the British invasion, you know, the Kinks and all these other bands coming out of Great Britain, like they were the innovators. This was the place that was happening. - Well, in that sense like-- - And Brooklyn, you know, 15 years ago.

- But I guess maybe in that sense, in the 21st century, geographical hubs are becoming a thing of the past. So like you can be a hub in the digital space now. So like it's not, maybe you'll never have-- - I don't think, I think there will always be, I mean, what I'm saying, digital space makes it easier for let's suppose Cleveland to be a hub.

- Right. - Because all you need are like 10 people who happen to live in Cleveland. Or you know, Akron was a hub, a minor hub. - All it takes is 10 to 50 people to create a, yeah. And maybe even less. Maybe it's just two or three or four people.

- I mean, there's been no shortage of articles talking about Austin and what's happening here. And I know some of Joe's plans and you and I and Blair and all these other people that we know. Buddy Andrew Heaton moved here. He's just one of the best people I know.

It's just, I'm really, really excited. - Can I ask you some weird thing about friendship? - Of course. - 'Cause you mentioned Sam, he's Mr. Harris to you. Didn't that bother you how he went after Joe? - What did he say? - He's like, oh, in case you guys have brain damage from watching Rogan's last episode, like watch, here's the answer.

And it's just like-- - Oh, like digs like that. - Yeah, yeah, I didn't like that. - I didn't like that either. I think Sam doesn't like it either about himself. - Okay. - He regrets those things. - Because it's very easy to say from his perspective, look, this isn't the full, Rogan didn't show you the full side of the story.

Here's the other side of the story. Please watch this and be informed. That's a very reasonable thing to say. - Yeah, I don't quite understand this. So they do this about each other now. I'll put three people on the table, which is Joe Rogan, Sam Harris, and Brett Weinstein.

And they have a way of talking like the other person is creating a lot of harm. Like publicly would say things like that. And I understand there's emotion in it, but like these are human beings that are friends of yours. - But I'll go the other way. Let's suppose it is true that Joe's doing a lot of harm, spreading misinformation.

Being sarcastic isn't going to be persuasive. Whereas if you're like, he's wrong, here's the facts, or be informed, to me, but then I'm not Sam Harris. He's got a bigger audience than me, so maybe he's the one who's right, not wrong. - No, he's just human. - Okay, well, I can't relate.

- Well, have you seen your Twitter lately? I mean, you get very, you have a lot of fun on Twitter. I feel like Twitter lets-- - I've never done that with someone I'm friends with. I never would. - Okay, let's put that on record before he trolls me. - It is on record.

Because if there's an issue with you, I'm getting you on the phone. - Yeah, good. I mean, that's the way-- - 'Cause then I'm not backing you into a corner publicly. It doesn't make any sense strategically. - Yeah, and actually, Brett Weinstein tweeted something, sort of criticizing something, I already forgot what.

But he texted me first saying, "Is it okay if I tweet this?" And I said, "Yep." I was excited. But I think there's some level of just, be compassionate privately and be compassionate publicly. - Or be civil. - Civil. For some reason, I don't like the word civility 'cause it's polite.

- Or be cordial, is that better? - No, what I mean is-- - It seems phony to you? - It seems phony. You should radiate love in whatever way. So even if you're rough with the other person, you should still show respect and love for that person. And that gets back to the Russian rules where they're yelling at each other, but there's still love underneath it.

I mean, the question I wanna ask for you is I think you and I have a different view on some things. We have a different approach to things, just on the surface level, but also a different view on some things. I have a lot of hope for institutions. Maybe it's a gut instinct.

Your gut instinct is like centers of power are like burn them down first and then let's figure it out. Or maybe that's a funny, rough way of saying it. - No, I think that's about right. - And then for me, it's like, no, let's understand the institution and slowly, revolutions from within versus revolutions from without.

But we can have those disagreements and there may be times when those disagreements will be, I could see in the future, I could see I'll be attacked by my friend, Michael Malice, which I very look forward to it. No, not attack, but you know what I mean, on the surface level, in the idea space.

Anyway, 'cause you're shaking your head now, you won't. I guess maybe this also goes to Sam Harrison, Joe Rogan. I would love to be able to disagree, disagree in big ways on important things and still be close friends. And I don't understand why those should be contradictions. - Yeah.

- And that's the tension. That's been the most heartbreaking thing to me about Sam and Brett and Joe. Well, in the case of Brett, it's me, I don't know Brett, so I'm just like looking as somebody who just enjoys having these voices out there. And it seems like COVID just brought out the worst in some many folks.

And it just feels like it's so sad to me to see their friendship somewhat deteriorating, or maybe I'm just being-- - No, it seems clear it's deteriorated enormously. - Sad, if that's the case. - Yeah, so I've had people come at me, 'cause I'm friends with you, and they were like, "Oh, Lex authored some paper about masks." I don't even know what the hell they're referring to, I don't care.

I always say and mean, I don't care whether someone agrees with me, I care how they treat me. And it goes the other way, 'cause I'll have a lot of people on Twitter who are like, "Oh, I'm on your team," and blah, blah, blah, I'm like, "I don't know you, you're not my team." And just because you happen to agree with me, it's of no value to me.

Like, I don't know you and I'm interested in knowing you. Many of my friends, I don't know what their politics are, I don't care. Like I care how we hang out, have a good time, watch dumb movies, watch YouTube, go to the store, whatever. I don't know what your politics are, I don't care what your politics are.

Chris Williamson, who, you know, he's just here, he's gonna be moving to Austin. I only learned what his politics are in the last, we've been, we chat like almost every day, 'cause he took the world's smallest political quiz, and he figured out what his answers were. I had no idea where he's-- - He's communist.

- He's, well, obviously, yeah, yeah. - Marxist. - Yeah. - Let's be honest. (laughing) So, like, stuff like that, like, it never, and people, I think, because politics is often so tribal, especially now, they'll be like, "Oh, I could never be friends with someone who voted for X." Really?

I feel like grandma worked in that campaign. What if, you know, blah, blah, blah. You can't think of one steel man argument why this would happen, but if they just want to spite their boss. So, I don't like that approach at all. It makes no sense to me. - We could still have debates.

I mean, like, I would still like to have those conversations and still have disagreements. Like, I disagree with Joe on COVID a lot, on a bunch of different things, very kinda, but it's never, like, it's not tense at all. It's just, it doesn't have that arrogance that a lot of COVID conversations seems to have, like, talking down to people from both directions.

- Yeah, yeah, yeah. - So, I would love to have those, 'cause I love to debate. I love debates. - It takes a lot to get me triggered, and when the Babylon Bee were interviewing Elon, and he had this thing, he goes, "Well, I don't know anyone who wants to, you know, "abolish the FDA and the FAA, and I'm standing there, "and I'm shaking, and the guys look at me, "and they're like, 'Oh, we actually have an anarchist here,'" and the example he used was, "You know, look, if you're playing football, "you're gonna have a referee there, "and you want the referee, you know, "but the referee started playing the game, "it's not such a good thing." And I'm sitting there, I'm like, "The referee doesn't work for the state." The referee is a private individual working for this organization, and there's no reason at all that food quality, which is something crucially important, has to be or can only be delivered through the state and a government monopoly.

- That's actually really interesting, just to link on that, just a little bit, with the vaccine and stuff like that, with the antiviral drugs, the FDA, so like, are you, like, who should be the referee? - Right. - Do you have an idea, like, what's the best referee for the vaccine?

Is it just the market? Just let people decide? - This is tricky, because the thing that, I have not been following COVID as closely as Joe and Sam, as Mr. Harris, excuse me, and Mr. Musk. The point is, when anything like this is developing, there's gonna be a lot of misinformation out there, even from the scientists, because it's a dynamic process.

They don't know what they're dealing with. A lot of it has to be speculative. They don't know long-term effects, 'cause it hasn't been around for a long time. So I think it is very dangerous when, you know, when Joe was mocked for taking a laundry list of things, under his doctor's advice, and they kind of latched onto the ivermectin, and then they specifically said it was horse paste, although it's veterinary medicines, why didn't they say dog paste or cat paste?

It's like, well, he's not dead, and he's also taking drugs which are used in other circumstances, the very least, maybe they're pointless, but if the drug is being allowed for pharmaceutical reasons, the odds are quite low that they're gonna have deleterious side effects in general. So I think this kind of insistence that there has to be one A, officially approved outcome, that we're all doing, that is kind of dangerous thinking in general.

- By the way, I don't know if you saw, I got a chance to talk to the Pfizer CEO, and I had helped collecting questions, 'cause I got a lot of questions, and people put at the top a question for Michael Malice. - Oh, really? - Ask him what he likes best about me.

- Oh, what does he like best, yeah, yeah, yeah. - So I actually had that on my list of questions I was gonna ask him, and my plan was I'll ask him, Michael Malice wants to know what you like best about him, and then my guess was he'd be like, "Who?" And I'd be like, "Exactly," and then go on to the next.

But I thought it was such a tense conversation that I thought there would be no-- - Of course, room for levity. The question I would ask him is, can you acknowledge that there is an enormous incentive for your company to force everyone in America or everyone on Earth to be a consumer of your product?

- Yeah. - That's my question. - So I dance around that question quite a lot. I phrase it differently, which is a conflict of interest and attention between making a lot of money and actually helping people. I've asked a lot of really heavy questions in that, and I still, and a lot of people wrote to me with support saying that was a really great conversation, and a lot of people wrote saying that it was just too soft.

I don't know, I think about that a lot, like how do you have that conversation? I don't think it was too soft. And actually, just for the record, I wanna say that they didn't see any of the questions I'm asking. They didn't see the final interview. I can ask anything I want.

So any questions that I asked and failed to ask is my own shortcomings. Also, not being a coward, I was afraid of nothing. Like what do I have to gain or lose exactly? Well, you have something to lose, because if you're, I do, I always do softballs, because if I'm going to make it difficult for someone to come to my show, a lot of people will be disincentivized to do the show, 'cause like, well, I don't need this.

I see, oh yeah, I wasn't thinking like that, but I was, I don't like to, what I think some fraction of folks wanted me to do is to yell at a person, like criticize them, not even ask questions, essentially. - Yeah, yeah, how dare you? - Yeah, but to me, my goal, my hope is with these conversations is not just to do how great you are and all that kind of stuff, is to bring out some deeper truth.

Like the beautiful things is when you can together realize some truth, like you mentioned, that the incentive for everyone to take the vaccine is obviously high for the maker of a vaccine. - Yeah. - Right? And for them to arrive at that truth together, like that is a really difficult truth to operate under.

Like, for example, I had a whole exchange with him about, this is Jordan Peterson asked this question, I use that as a kind of springboard, which is the kind of open doors between the FDA, the CDC, and Pfizer. - Right. - Like some people work at Pfizer and then go to work at the FDA and then vice versa.

And I brought up, this is my safe space, maybe yours too, just going back to the Soviet Union to look at the lessons of human nature and corruption. I said like, so there's two things, this looks bad, and two, this naturally leads to corruption. And I pushed this with several questions, but polite and respectful.

And he ultimately said, you know, there's rules. There's the rule of law, and there's very strict rules about this, and we have to follow those rules. Otherwise, we get punished severely. So like his response is, people reacted to them as like, okay, that's the CEO doing the political, but there's also truth to what he's saying, that one of the beautiful things about America is that you can criticize the rule of law currently, but it's still, it's better than in the Soviet Union where people bribed each other.

And, but still, he made it seem like there's no corruption. - People often ask me why I describe myself as an anarchist and not a narco-capitalist, because they think my views are more in line with that school of anarchism. And one of the other reasons you just gave me a good one is that if I am talking to someone who's a major CEO, I have that hardcore left anarchist view that this person is, if not the devil, certainly gonna be sinister at the very least.

And if you can't say, listen, this happens inevitably with elites, it happens in universities, it happens in the food industry, there's only so many people at the top of these things, the field is small, and everyone's gonna know each other, which is kind of just the dynamics of any market, that would kind of be more reasonable.

And just say, it's easy to caricature us 'cause you're not in the boardroom, but we are trying to produce a product that people want. - Unlike the people who criticize me, I wasn't bothered by most things, but I was bothered by the fact that he didn't show more worry about the corrupting nature of money and power.

If you say that there's no corruption, you should show that because we constantly worry about it, not because, look, there's rules. - Yeah, which are enforced by you. - Yeah, exactly. So I think the only way to avoid for time the corrupting force of power is to freak out about it, nonstop.

- The impression I always get from people like him, and I haven't seen the interview, and I won't be watching it, is they're genuinely convinced that they're good guys. And if you're the good guy, sure, corruption is a concern theoretically, but I know this guy at the FDA, I know this senator, sure, we disagree, sure, they do some things I don't like, but in terms of corrupt, they're not getting briefcases full of money, they're not gonna sell a vaccine that kills people in Georgia.

So yeah, it's a concern theoretically, but this is 21st century. The thought process, I think, writes itself. - I think, yeah, having the humility, I do this all the time, maybe to a destructive level, thinking that I might be doing bad for the world, I might be wrong, I might be, that kind of thinking is very, you should do at least some of that, not to a point of being paralyzed, but a little bit.

You're actually in the right mindset for me to ask you then for advice. You're in this compassionate, thoughtful mood, I like it, the compassionate, thoughtful, Michael. So for future conversations like that, so the person that offered a conversation that at first I avoided, but I might return to, is Anthony Fauci.

So there's Anthony Fauci, but then there's also Trump and Biden, things, people like that. If you had them on your show, or just giving me advice on how to talk to them, what do you think is the right way to talk to them? And forget about future guests, but to get at something new, together.

Get at something, not for views or likes or clicks or any of that, but discover something new through the mode of conversation. - Well, let's take those one at a time. So if I was talking to Trump, I told Ruben to ask Trump this and he didn't, what I wanted to know is, what's the look on your face when you're sending these tweets?

'Cause I'm imagining him on the toilet with his phone. Are you cracking yourself up? Are you just completely stoic? Are you kind of that Trump little smirk he does? So when you get someone to open up about their emotion, about something they're passionate about, I think that breaks down some barriers and creates a bond.

- That's a really good question. But Ruben wouldn't be, that's not his style. That's a great question for you to ask. - Well, I told him to say Michael Malice. - Oh, my sorry. - For Biden, that would be a tough one because Biden doesn't get enough credit for what a good politician he is.

There was this moment people can see on YouTube where Biden is addressing a room full of people and he had someone there and he goes, can you, why don't you stand up so everyone can give you a hand? And the guy was in a wheelchair. And Biden's like, oh, whoop.

And like, but instantly he goes, you know what? We're all gonna stand up for you. And he made everyone get up and applaud the guy. I'm like, that's quick. Like, yeah, you made a fool of yourself. So he is a glad hander. In many ways, he's more of a schmoozer than Trump was.

Like Trump made the point that he knows all the good people, but Biden knows how to shake hands. - Well, I think with both, and sorry to interrupt, with both Trump and Biden, like you mentioned earlier, to me at least, their family is fascinating. The dynamic as a family man, as a father, as a-- - I think that Biden won't acknowledge his illegitimate grandkid is a problem for me.

But at the same time, I can see why he think it's off limits to ask. 'Cause that's the thing, when you're dealing with people that powerful, they're not used to having to answer questions which might be perfectly nice, but would cause them to freak the hell out. - That's the tricky thing of talking to people, as you know.

Like some topics are off limit, not in that they draw lines, but they just shut down when you ask them. Trust me, I think I talked to Elon three times now. You better believe I brought up love. And how far do you think that got? You could just imagine-- - Zero, that's one.

- We did exactly the kind of robot back and forth, and it just like shut down. So yeah, I worry about that with the personal. But that's the thing that makes it fascinating with those two. 'Cause he had, with Hunter and losing his son, like the dynamic of the complexities of all that, like just having children fuck up in the way children do.

And then with Trump, the interesting dynamic. He has very different kids, and they're all kind of interesting in different ways. And maintaining connection with all of them and also letting them flourish individually is fascinating to me. - Well, I'd also wanna ask Trump if he can name all the presidents in order, which there's no he can.

But I'd also wanna know-- - All the, do you think he knows who the second president of the United States is? - Yes. - No, okay. - John Adams, he knows. I think when it gets between Ulysses S. Grant and McKinley, that's when we all screw up. That window, it's tough.

- Yeah, yeah, I'm sure that's the one window where he, I mean, he's not-- - He's gonna be able to get back to FDR, no question. - I have to, my sense was with Donald Trump, and this is not, I would say, a criticism, is he doesn't have a depth of knowledge or, more importantly, curiosity about history.

- Yeah, but if you're old enough, you're gonna at least remember the presidents in your lifetime. - In your lifetime, yeah, yeah, sorry. - Yeah, so that's what I'm saying. He'll get us from president to FDR pretty easily. - Yeah, yeah, okay, sure. I thought you meant FDR from the other direction.

- No, no, yeah, from current to FDR. - Yeah, but yeah, from a political perspective, like having a conversation about politics with those two, there is interesting topics, interaction between Donald Trump and Putin, not the interaction, like not the stupid journalistic stuff, but it's clear to me that he is a student of power.

- Oh, for sure. - And like he enjoys the game of power. - Yeah. - And so it's interesting, 'cause to me, the reason he admires Putin is it's another player in the game of power. - And I think why so many people hate him, Trump, is that he demonstrated to a lot of Americans how much of a con job most of politics is and how people just say what they need to do, but behind closed doors, these people are buffoons, and he exposed them as that.

I'd also, so the Biden, I think Biden would be a tougher interview than Trump because I feel like Biden's more slippery in many ways. He's much more of a consummate politician. He's been in the Senate since the early '70s. Since he was like 30 or 35, whatever it was.

So he'd have his little kind of pat answers. There was Larry King, who was certainly a softball interviewer, and I don't begrudge him that at all. I remember it was very vividly, and it was like, I think it was the 2008 cycle. He asked Hillary, "Why do you think so many people hate you?" And she just goes like, "Oh, well, I take tough stances." And he cut her off.

He goes, "Other people have taken those stances. "Why do they hate you?" And she didn't really, I was really impressed with him that he didn't let her off the hook. - That to me is great. But some people will say that's still too softball. 'Cause you, like they would want him to start listing, I don't know, droning, like all the things that Hillary Clinton is criticized for.

- Yeah, but then what she, she's done this many times. She's very good at this. She'll be like, "Look, I've addressed all these in the past. "If you wanna start rehashing Republican talking points, "you can go look up my interviews." - Yeah, I think it's counterproductive. - Yeah. - But I think about the more prescient for me, I can't believe I'm walking through this fire for no good reason whatsoever, but Anthony Fauci.

So let me tell you why I care about Anthony Fauci. Because I care a lot about science and the way science is viewed in society. And not to put it at the feet of this one person, but him and certain members of the scientific community that was responsible for managing the response to COVID, I think are somewhat or entirely responsible for a significant decrease in trust in science.

- Yes, no question. - In the past couple of years. - There was a poll that just came out this week that said the number has just collapsed. - And if you don't blame him for it, I personally blame him for not improving the problem. And so there's definitely would be a harsh conversation there to be had.

And I think I wanna have it, but how do you do it? It's tough. - Yeah. - Because again, politicians, there's political answers. If they get too frustrated too quickly, they will not explore these difficult things with you. They'll just shut down. But then if you say too many nice things, because I should also say Anthony Fauci is an incredible career.

Like there's several hours worth of conversation to be had about how amazing of a person he is. - Well, I would also be curious about the AIDS stuff. - Yes. - 'Cause that's something that's criticized about, and I wouldn't come at it aggressively. I would say, let's set the record straight.

This is some of the criticism you get, blah, blah, blah. You're rolling in the AIDS crisis. Let's talk about this. And this is something that is important part of American history. There was a pandemic, and it was localized to certain populations. And that population at the first at least was pretty much told goodbye and good luck.

You're gonna have to deal with this. So how did you deal with that? I mean, were you scared of getting AIDS? You know, so on and so forth. But also there was that comment when, and correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not a Fauci expert, when he basically, they told people not to wear masks or they lied about it to some extent because they said then people were gonna run out of them or something like that.

And they admitted they were being inaccurate. I would nail him on that. I'm like, let's address this. Were you being dishonest? Is there sometimes when it's important to be dishonest in service of whatever? Also, I would ask him how, as someone who's not a politician, whether his level of fame and adulation has gotten to his head.

How do you have a perspective when, and how does it feel when a sitting senator tells you that you should be imprisoned? Do you think Ted Cruz means it? Or you think Ted Cruz is just playing to his base? - Yeah, I like the fame one. I would love to sneak up.

I mean, that question applies to you too. That question applies to me. When you start getting more fame or money or power, are you aware of how that changed you? And explore that. How has that changed you? In the privacy of your mind, Michael Malice, how did you change now that you've gotten more attention, let's say?

Or even the success of the book. Take yourself back to the, you talk about the early 20s, the mid-20s person. How are you different from that person? Are you the same person? Or are you totally different? That's an interesting thought. Is Putin the same person in 2020 as he was in 2010 and then in 2000?

It's a non-trivial, almost like-- - And then the other thing with Fauci is, this is a dynamic system. Like on the one hand, he's gonna wanna say we got it right every time, right? But then how is that even possible when you're dealing with an evolving, unknown, dynamic situation?

When did you guys get it wrong? Did that result in lives lost? Do you feel guilty about that? - I mean, the big problem with the masks, the changing of mind on the mask is the arrogance in how it was communicated. To me, a lot of this boils down to how things are communicated.

It's like, it's obvious that you need to change your mind when you get new information. Or sometimes, yeah, you take policies that are like, we know the truth, but we're going to lie for a particular reason, like you have good intentions. But if you're not able to communicate that later, like we made a mistake.

- Or even ask him, can you understand how a rational person might choose not to get vaccinated? - Yes, yes, yes. - And if he can't steel man that, then that's a situation. - That's a good test, and I've tried, and some people succeed and some people fail. The ability to really steel man the other, understand that somebody would be hesitant about taking the vaccine, yeah.

It's a giant mess, man. This podcast thing, it's just a fun little conversation, but it also has a responsibility. I don't know, I don't know how Joe does it. - I don't think Joe cares as much as you do. It's more fun for him in a sense, and he's less concerned about the, I mean, he's not unconcerned with the cultural impact, but for him, it's just more bro-ing out.

- Yeah. - Like, he doesn't do as much prep. He doesn't come in with three pages, single spaced of questions. - Yeah, and-- - That's why he's talking to Blair White for 10 minutes about whether sharks lay eggs without knowing. - You're the one triggered person. He didn't, maybe he trolled the troll.

- Well, it worked. Yeah, he did. - Do sharks lay eggs? I'd like to get an updated 2021 version of Michael Malice giving advice to young people. - Okay. - So there's, God forbid, high school students, college students listening to you, and looking to you for advice. What advice would you give them about career and about life, how to live a life that you can be proud of?

- This happens a lot, 'cause I have my Locals community, malice.locals.com, and there's a lot of young people on there. - Yeah, that's a great place. - I'll give them a meta piece of advice. Don't ask your friends for advice, 'cause you're an idiot at your age, and they're all idiots, and they don't wanna seem like idiots, so they're just gonna give you advice.

They pulled it from the TV, and no one knows what you're talking about, and it's just gonna be counterintuitive. So seek out advice from people who you seek to emulate, and ask them for advice. If you can't get ahold of them, figure out a way to get ahold of them.

Incentivize them in some way. You'd be surprised how many people are responsive on Twitter or in social media if you just ask them a basic life question, 'cause then they can quote, tweet, and answer to a whole population. So that would be one mechanism. It's also very hard at that age to realize your parents might not be all that bright, and they might not be all that good people.

So that's a hard one at that age to kinda wrap your head around. Just 'cause they love you doesn't mean they understand you, and that's okay. That's okay. We like everybody. - Shit, your Trump's pretty good too. I'd like your Trump to talk to Elon, to have a conversation.

- Well, Mr. President, look, some things you did, like some, not so much, but for the most part, I think, did a kinda good thing. What are you talking about? (laughing) Hey guys, what are we talking about? No, I fucked up the lex. Anyway, so those would be two pieces.

The other piece of advice I would say is join a gym or have some kind of quantifiable daily improvement. To keep you sane. So the reason I always say weightlifting, and it could be running, it could be jump rope, I don't care what it is, because if you have those numbers moving in the positive direction, psychologically, if you're dealing with depression or anxiety, it's concrete proof to shut your brain up.

Because your brain knows how to talk to you. Your brain is often your enemy, and it'll say exactly the right thing to undermine you. So that's an issue. I just, this works for me, maybe it won't for most people. I'm very high on the openness metric. Try new experiences, new things, try things you don't like.

It's okay to have a bad experience, you've learned something. So go to a restaurant of a cuisine you wouldn't like or hadn't heard of, read a book that's popular but you have no interest in. Read a lot. For example, I didn't know anything about the election, what was it, 1892, when there was like a split between the electors.

Read a book about it. Oh, I don't know anything. You know, I don't know anything really about Malcolm X. Read a book about him. You'll be amazed how much more full you become as a person. - Do you see value in writing also? Like writing down your ideas? - No, I think there's very little value in that.

I'm not joking. - So reading is where the biggest-- - Yeah, 'cause you're probably not gonna revisit what you've written down. - But the act of writing, you don't see, it solidifies somehow thoughts in your mind? - Not for me. - It doesn't for you? - Like a tweet will, 'cause then I have to have it narrowed down into like a phrase.

- Or the responsibility of there being an audience. - No, I just meant in terms of I've got 280 characters. If instead of having a meandering thought, I have to codify it in something that's catchy and short, that's a good, useful mental exercise. - What face do you make when you tweet?

- I wouldn't know. I don't know. That's a good point. - Is it on the toilet? How much, what percentage is on the toilet? - Very little. On the toilets, I usually am more reading. - Okay. - So even though my tweets are all literally shit, very few of them are on the toilet.

- They're on a throne. - That's some advice. Don't compare yourself to other people. That's a really dangerous one. All my friends are married. I should have a kid by now. Should, there's an expression in recovery, stop shitting yourself. But it's, should, should, should. It's stupid. I also, and this could be my hoarder brain, I surround my house with talismans of joy.

So if you have an accomplishment, like when I did Rogan once, I bought, went to the sock store and I bought these orange socks with black cherries on them. And now whenever I wore those socks, I'm like, oh, this is 'cause I was on Rogan. That was kind of a big deal.

So if you have these little things throughout your house, it's, it was good mental fuel. Even like a toy. Remember when I was a kid, oh, you know what? This, little moments that inspire happiness, I think are visually very useful. So that's another one. And-- - I, by the way, have the, that, the watch.

'Cause we're talking about 2021. That was really, the guy in the lecture hall giving you a pat in the back, I wrote, Joe gave me the watch. Was, yeah, it's life changing for me. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - It doesn't even, it didn't, the fact that it was on a podcast or whatever, doesn't matter.

- Learn how to form boundaries. That's probably the biggest, that's gonna be number one on my list. Because-- - Can you explain? - You're gonna have people around you who feel the need that they're entitled to your time, who feel the need to criticize you, and they're not coming from a good place.

So it's very good for you to be like, I'm not interested in talking about this anymore right now. - Yeah, even if it's your parents. - Even if it's your, especially if it's your parents. Like, I need my space right now. You're entitled to your space. You're entitled to your time.

No one owes you, you don't owe anyone a response. If someone has a question, you owe them an answer, especially if they're not coming at you in good faith or they're coming at you in a hostile way. That's a big one. It's hard to learn at that age. And be valuable to those who are around you.

Be someone who people are happy to see. And if things are bad, like you're the one that they can rely on. Like I was just a little bit under the weather and I thought to myself, you know what, if things got really bad, I'll call Blair and she would take care of me and that kind of was very reassuring.

- And you can always call me if you need heavy stuff lifted in an urgent matter. - Because of the robots? - No, just me, it's kind of like, those are the things I can help with. Or you're actually literally bleeding. I'm not a good caretaker, I can save you though.

I can murder, if you need somebody murdered, I can do this. - Wait, what advice would you have to kids that age? And you're a lot younger than you think you are, that's the other one. - Yeah, there's time. - I know, it's impossible to understand when you're 26 that your 40s are better than your 30s.

'Cause like, okay, old man, that's all cope. I promise you it is. - Yeah, I think you said so many beautiful things. I would say another version of the openness, I would say take big risks when you're young. - Yeah, 'cause if you fail, who cares? You're sleeping in a futon, who cares?

- Yeah, and take them often. - Yeah. - Also, this is a little personal to me. I get pushback on this, but I think take big risks and work really hard at whatever you do. I think you just have to give yourself to a thing. It doesn't have to be in terms of time, but really give everything.

So it's not like I'm going to try doing this. I'll try, I'll try. Try with all of your heart. Like really commit yourself. That doesn't mean necessarily hours, that doesn't mean, but like if you fail at doing a thing that you commit to, it should hurt. So like when I competed in jujitsu, or you do like sports and so on, don't just say I'm gonna have fun out there, so on.

No, try to win. And because then if you don't, it hurts, and you learn from that. And then throughout, I think this is a goodness thing, is be kind. Some of it is also a skill, allowing yourself to be kind. I found myself earlier in life, I still do this.

I find when I hang out with people, people are often cynical and negative. - Yeah, I try to avoid those people. - No, but like, I think everybody falls into that. And sometimes it's the party norm thing. There's a temptation to me to kind of fit in by being more negative than I'm comfortable being.

And so resist the pressure. I think especially when you're younger, it's not cool to care. - The thing that drives, when you're young, if you are a fan of a band, a writer, a podcaster, an actor, and people roll their eyes at you, watch out, those people are dangerous.

You should have, if you love Avril Lavigne with her terrible music, and she gives you joy, and people crap on you, they're wrong and you're right. So hold on to those things that make you happy. And if people wanna take that away from you, or how can you like that?

Those people are not your friends. - Why do you have to go make life so complicated? - She's my favorite musician of all time. Jimi Hendrix second, Avril Lavigne first. Thank you for almost bringing a deer to my eye. You mentioned the should-os in terms of love, and you should have kids by now.

I apologize if it's a personal one, but I think at least I have this thought. And not from society, but from myself. Like I wanna get married, I wanna have kids. Do you feel the pressure of that? Do you wanna have kids? - I don't wanna have kids. - You wanna get married?

- I do wanna get married. This was an issue that I had to kind of work out earlier this year in terms of the possibility of having kids, 'cause I was in a relationship with someone who would have been, in many ways, literally a perfect mom. So I did my due diligence, and I actually sat down with friends of mine who had kids, and I say, "Give me the downside." - You did the pros and the cons.

- Well, the pros I knew. The pros for kids are very, I love kids. I was just with Frank Fleming, he writes for the Babylon Bee, and he had his four kids, and his youngest son has Down syndrome, which is adorable. Winchester's so cute. And I always get along with kids.

I remember very vividly what it was like to be a kid, especially a precocious kid, and I remember how much it bothered me when my parents' friends wouldn't give me attention, so I always make it a point to acknowledge kids, to talk to them, and they're very grateful, and it's just really fun.

Especially the people who I'm friends with, their kids are probably gonna be pretty cool. They're not gonna be annoying and kind of ugly and overweight. (Lex laughs) So I-- - I love you got that in there. Okay, good. - Yeah, sorry, I'll go. But-- - But the cons, the negatives, what was the conversation like about that?

- Well, I talked, my sister has two kids, my nephews, who I absolutely adore, whatever their names are, and she was, she was saying certain things. It's like, if I had kids, my kids are in my top priority. - Yeah. - It's not even a question. And I feel like the work I'm doing, and this sounds pompous, but it's true, is A, valuable and important, but I'm also the only one doing it.

So this is a big cost, and so it's like, it would be a major lifestyle readjustment. And I'm at the point where I'm kind of selfish enough that I wouldn't want to do that, and also it'd have to be with the right woman. Like, you're making a commitment, you know?

And since they're all crazy, you have to find one where you can handle the crazy. - All women are crazy? - Yeah. There are one and a halves in a binary world. - Oh boy, that's not comfortable for me. - No, sir. (chuckles) - But do you feel the pressure in thinking of that?

How much does that weigh on your heart? Like, so Elon has kids. I feel like I love everything, and I love stuff I do. I love the robot over there, just working with robots. But I do feel the pressure of like, almost like when there's amazing cuisines you never tried or something like that, like, go out there and try it.

Like, you need to put in the work, and I don't know. Like, life will run away from you, slip through your fingers before you truly get to experience this other kind of love, which is like long-term love for another human being, which is like marriage, and then love for kids.

Yeah, and it almost makes me sad, like not getting to experience that. You know, 'cause I'm also really scared of, I've seen so many bad stories on the partner side, like being with the wrong person. - Right. - That to me is, I'm not worried, I have kids all day.

In fact, I could probably just have kids without the partner. Kids, I think, are incredible. But the partner, like a wife, it seems like she could then have the negative consequences for you as a writer on your productivity and your mental ability to flourish, of being a joy to others, all those kinds of things.

- You know what, that couldn't happen, because every relationship I've had, they've been very, beyond supportive. Like, they'd rather take an hour and do your work than spend time with me. Like, I believe in what you're doing. So I couldn't even casually date someone who didn't believe that, yeah.

- So that's energizing. - Yes. - But over time, you never know how that evolves and all those kinds of things. And for me, I think we're a little bit different. I mean, that has to do with the engineering thing. I just have to pull insane hours. - Yeah, I don't.

I work like two hours a day. - But that's what creatives do. You can only work a couple hours, honestly, to be productive, and the rest of the time not. I have to do a lot of menial labor. And so there, there's legit tension on terms of time and attention, all those kinds of things.

I don't know. Do you think about this stuff a lot, or do you just love life and do cool stuff, and whatever happens, happens? - I have been so blessed for so long now that I'm at the point where I don't think about it, and I'm like, you know, just like, miracles happen every day, so just be open to it.

- You think about your death, mortality? - Yes. - Fear, what do you feel about it? - I'm just worried. I wanna take as many people out with me as possible. So, suitcase nuke. - What's the best way? Nuke, suitcase nuke, I'm thinking. - Yeah. - No, I do think-- - In New York, that would be kind of ironic, as my other favorite artist would say.

- I think about my legacy, and that's why my books are so important to me. - So, do you think of it as a kind of immortality? - It is, though. - Like, that's who you are, is those books. - Well, it's not who I am, but my legacy certainly is.

- What do you hope your legacy is? - That I encourage people to be hopeful, and that I taught them how to be free. And my favorite, I think the best show of all time, was "Dallas," which often gets, it was like an '80s soap opera, and people conflate it with "Dynasty," and they think it's trashy, and it was very Shakespearean, because all the characters are motivated by different values and the writing is just masterful, and the acting is masterful.

And I'm not gonna spoil anything. One season ended with one of the characters on their deathbed in the hospital, and the whole cast is there, and the amount of acting talent in that room is just phenomenal. And as the character's dying, they look around and they go, like, "Please be kind to one another, be a family." And they're yelling at this character, "Don't you dare die on me," you know?

And you could see the actors, 'cause they're losing their castmate who they've had from the beginning. And it would have been a perfect ending to the show, but obviously it's a cash cow, they gotta keep milking it. And I think that kindness and tenderness, and this is Michael Malice talking, there's a lot of people who want to make it that if you are kind or tender, you're gonna have consequences, bad consequences.

And I think it's important, for me at least, to create a space in my life that if someone is going to be nice or friendly or kind, that they're not gonna have to feel stupid or bad about it. It's such a disincentive, the set of structure's so different. If you wanna be cynical and sneering, like round of applause, but if someone says, "Oh, this is great," like, okay, simp, it's really bad.

- Well, I think you do just this. You do this today, you do this in our friendship, and you do it for a very large number of people, is teach them how to have hope. - Yes. - And teach them how to be free. So, (speaking in foreign language) - (speaking in foreign language) - (speaking in foreign language) Thank you so much for talking to me.

Thank you so much for being an inspiration. I love you, brother. - I love you. - Thanks for listening to this conversation with Michael Malice. To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, let me leave you with some words from Albert Camus. "Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow.

"Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. "Walk beside me. "Just be my friend." Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)