(upbeat music) - Hello, and welcome to another episode of All The Hacks, a show about upgrading your life, money, and travel. If you're new here, I'm your host, Chris Hutchins, and one of the areas I love optimizing the most is travel. I've been to 60 plus countries, and on every trip, I love meeting locals, trying to understand their culture, having authentic experiences, and most of all, I love finding a way to eat all the best foods a place has to offer.

And hands down, one of my favorite travel destinations in the world is Japan. So I wanted to do another travel episode on just traveling there. And while I've been there four times, there is no one better to join me than my previous guest, Brandon Presser, who's been there every year for the past 20 years, except 2021, including spending a month there last November.

He's also lived there twice, and he's written three books on the country. He is a true expert on Japan, but he's also been to over 100 countries and written well over 50 guidebooks, so he is actually an all-around travel pro as well. We're gonna talk about why we both love the country so much, what makes it worth a visit, where you should go, what you should see and do, and my favorite, all the incredible foods you should be trying and our favorite spots to eat them.

I hope that by the time you finish this episode, whether you've never been to Japan, have a trip on the horizon, or have been before, you're gonna be inspired to go there soon and have a ton of amazing new things to check out when you get there. So let's get into it right after this.

Brandon, thank you so much for being here a second time. - Thank you so much for having me. - You've traveled to so many countries. What is it about Japan that keeps bringing you back? - So the thing about Japan, for me, is that the more time you spend there, the more you realize you don't know the destination that well.

And every time I go back, there's always a new thing to explore, there's always a theme that needs unpacking, and it's one of those places that it's not like in New York, where you get to live there for 10 years and then you get to say you're a New Yorker.

The more time you spend, the more you're like, "Wow, I'm not from here." - This is coming from someone who's lived there twice and been there well over a dozen times, so that's wild. What is so different about Japan? - I've heard a lot of people call Japan a Galapagos economy.

What that essentially means is that it's a country that has modernized and evolved away from the rest of the world. So a lot of the systems that are in place, a lot of the ways that we perceive the modern world are just slightly alternate universe. And I think that's what makes Japan so interesting and special.

- Can you give some examples? - Absolutely. One of the most important things to note about Japan and Japanese culture is that they have this proclivity for taking something from another country and then improving upon it. And so ramen is the best example of that. So it's a Chinese dish, became really popular after World War II, was called Chinese noodles.

And then the recipe started to change and started to evolve. And then it became ramen, which we all conceive of as distinctly Japanese. And the other example is toilets brought by the West. And as many of us know, they now can sing you happy birthday while you're using them and have all sorts of water features.

- Yeah, have a Japanese toilet. We've talked about how to get a deal on a Japanese toilet on this show before. And I totally agree. It's funny, I've been to Japan a few times and people are like, "Oh, you gotta check out this place for pizza." And I'm like, "Why would I get pizza in Japan?

That seems crazy." And it's like, "No, no, no." Because Japan takes everything and tries to make the best possible version you can of it. There was a pizzeria in Napoletana Dayuki in, I think, Kyoto. And the person who started it went to Italy, trained, brought back everything, and has tried to master the pizza in every way possible.

And the same is true about coffee and the list goes on forever. Whenever my wife and I come back, we're like, "I feel like we just came back from the future." In this world where everything was improved and thought of in a rational and logical way. So I am so excited to dig in here.

I'm so excited to go back to Japan. You are one of the people I know who's been since it reopened. What was it like in a kind of post-pandemic world? Well, much in the way that Japan always feels like this wonderful trip to the future. And I often, when I return from Japan, have sort of reverse culture shock.

When I get back to the US, I'm like, "Oh, this country is so disappointing relative to Japan." What was interesting about my trip to Japan this time was it felt a little bit like a visit to the recent past. Their relationship with COVID has been very different than in the US.

Everyone is still masking, even outdoors, even on a hike, I would pass people who are still wearing their masks outside. And we can kind of dig into why that is and how certain cultural things kind of inform that. But there is a lot of COVID fear. When I was there, a lot of people asked me, "Is this your first trip out of America?" since the pandemic.

And I think Japan was maybe my 15th country since we've torn away the veil of the pandemic. So in that sense, it was this odd revisiting of the trauma of the pandemic and the fear. But what's also really interesting about Japan is we're now post-Olympics. And that is something to really consider as well, 'cause it was sort of the Olympics that never happened.

There were high hopes for the Games. The last time that Japan had the Olympics was in 1964. And that was really fascinating 'cause it was the first Olympic Games that were televised around the world. And it was to signal that Japan was this fresh, newly modern country, post-World War II, a lot of really interesting modern architecture happening as the backdrop.

So they were kind of hoping to replicate that magic. And of course, that never happened. But how the Olympics actually are informing Japan is we're seeing a lot of little Western tweaks. English is a lot better than it was a few years ago. And we're also seeing much more credit card use than we did before.

Little things like that. - But things are open. You are able to go see stuff, do stuff, eat stuff, drink stuff. So just because there might be a feel like you're back in the past, I would say was still, you could go to Japan right now and have an amazing experience and do all the things you'd done before.

- Absolutely, I highly recommend it. If you're okay still wearing a mask out of courtesy, I would get on the plane tomorrow and you're gonna have an absolutely incredible experience. Everyone's excited for people to be coming back. Restaurants are fully operational. You know, if you saw in the news, a lot of travel articles that were like, go before the crowds, get back to Japan before the crowds, that's fake news.

The crowds are back in full force and Chinese tourists are gonna start heading back now as well. And even without the Chinese tourists who make up about 40 to 50% of the tourism in Japan, everything was rammed. All the favorite temples in Kyoto were packed with people. You absolutely needed reservations at popular restaurants.

So everything's back in full swing. - Okay, well, let's talk about that trip. When I did my first episode to London, I just picked a city. And I was like, oh, that's pretty easy. I'm getting a little ambitious here. We're gonna talk about an entire country. So instead of trying to go through every destination in the country, that would be impossible.

We would have to record for the next, I don't know, week or based on your experience, maybe for the next 20 years. But let's say someone's thinking about how to take that first trip for one, two weeks. What would you give them the advice of how to go, where to go, all of that?

- Yeah, so I would think about trip planning to Japan the way that I think about trip planning to every destination. Think of your trip as a meal. Think about you have your appetizer, your main course, and your dessert. So the appetizer is like you're getting into the vibe of the destination.

You're doing a little sampling, maybe tasting a few things. Really, you're getting over the jet lag. And so when you, by the time you transition to the main course, that's like the real showstopper. That's the meat. And then the dessert is gonna be the thing where you really treat yourself.

Save that really fun, cool thing until the end. And I'm not someone who suffers from FOMO, but I am sort of crippled by the optimizer's dilemma. Like I wanna make sure that I've had the best trip possible for me. And Japan is one of those places where there's just so many different variations on the theme.

I think the two places that you absolutely have to hit are Tokyo and Kyoto. And then you can kind of mix and match a variety of secondary destinations based on your personal interest. I wouldn't be a slave to, well, everyone else is going here or everyone else is going there.

I think critically about what is interesting to you about Japan. And we're gonna go through some of those different destinations and themes and kind of pick a mix from there and then end with your splurge where you're kind of really soaking in maybe a traditional inn, a ryokan, having that quintessential Japanese hospitality experience where you're not leaving the hotel, but just basking in that incredible design, food, everything that we know from the country.

- Hospitality. - That omotenashi, yeah. - Just high level, what are a few of those places outside of Tokyo and Kyoto that you'd put on the list? - I would think that you would wanna get four elements on your trip. You wanna do new, old, mountain, sea. Those are the four things that I think that you should check off your list for every trip to Japan, whether it's your first or whether it's your fourth.

And old and new can be in different cities. They are always looking ahead into the future while also cherishing their cultural and historical relics. And then you need to remember that Japan is on the Pacific Ring of Fire. There are still active volcanoes. The country's incredibly hilly, mountainous, and then you have these beautiful sea moments, bays, lakes, and putting that all together is just perfect.

- Are there specific places you're like, get to them, but here's a cool place, there's a cool place to get people excited? - Yeah, so think of Japan as having four major islands. And Tokyo and Kyoto are on the main island, Honshu, and I would absolutely add one of the other islands to your itinerary.

So Kyushu in the south, you're getting active volcanoes, you're getting onsen culture, this hot spring culture. This is a really hot emerging destination that I absolutely recommend. I can give you some specifics a little later on. Shikoku is the quietest of the four. These are small villages, a lot of farming, and that is where you're gonna really have that rural experience where you can go stay with a family and really embed in the culture in a very different, humble way.

And then you have Hokkaido in the north. Think of Japan as a lowercase J. Hokkaido is the dot at the top. And that is really famous internationally as a skiing destination. But I would challenge you to consider it as just a beautiful, natural destination and a place that's really worth going even in the summer for those mountains on steroids, these huge expanses of wilderness, but still with that Japanese sensibility.

- I love it. Okay, we're gonna get to a lot of this. I'm very sad that I don't have a Japan trip on the horizon. Best times, is there a time you think people should be planning their trip to Japan? - Yeah, that's a great question. I like to avoid the summer.

And that is not necessarily because that's when you have the most crowds, but surely a lot of people in their summer holidays are gonna end up in Japan. But it is desperately humid. When I used to live in Japan and I worked, my boss used to make me keep clothes at work so that after I would take the metro to the office, I would have fresh clothes to change into 'cause I would inevitably be sweaty.

July and August are upsettingly hot and humid. And so much of Japan, even though you're thinking about taking trains and all of this, so much is exploring by walking. So you wanna be comfortable. Obviously, there's cherry blossom season that's world famous and you're gonna get all of the crowds.

Is it worth the hype? Absolutely, it is totally stunning. There are cherry blossoms all over the country. You don't necessarily need to be in Tokyo or Kyoto to see them. My favorite time to go is in the fall because in the way that cherry blossom season is revered, so is the fall in Koyo, as it's called, leaf peeping.

So you get these beautiful red Japanese maples. I think November for me is my favorite time to visit. - We went in December 2019 with my family right before COVID came. And it was awesome because it wasn't that crowded, but it's not that cold. We didn't go to Hokkaido, it would have been cold, but in most of the rest of the country, it's not unbearably cold.

It was a little cheaper because people aren't traveling in cold cities as much, but I had a great time. It was a little easier to get into things. It wasn't that crowded. Any other kind of high level logistics? Do you think people need a guide? Someone wrote to me and I'll ask you and share my opinion, but they're like, should they be nervous if they only speak English?

Anything like that? - I think that the English has massively improved over the last 10 years, especially with the anticipated nudge of the Olympics. There were a lot of people that were taking English classes and that has really changed. Does it compare to other countries? No, I think that there's still a lack of English compared to a place like Thailand, say.

But I think you are gonna be fine going around on your own. And I think experiencing at least parts of your trip on your own is hugely rewarding, much more rewarding than in a lot of other destinations, simply because the quality of everything is so high that it's a destination that really lends itself to discovery.

Walking into a random restaurant will probably be pretty darn good. - We've done Japan four times. I speak like three words of Japanese and we had no guides ever any of those times. So I typically tell people, look, you might need to speak a little slower. You might need to point.

You might need to just accept that you'd just be surprised. But I don't think there's a country in the world that I've found that you can't go to because you don't speak the language. So I don't think that should be a barrier for anyone, but I've gotten a bunch of emails asking if it is, so I wanted to make sure we cover it.

And last, any tips you have since you've been there so many times to save money on setting everything up in advance? - Well, there's two things that I always think about when I'm planning a trip to Japan. I think we all wanna do a bit of pre-arrival research for some of our specifics.

It's a country that is very crowded. It's a country that's getting a lot of tourists. So you do want to plan a little bit in advance as far as what you're gonna eat, where you're gonna stay. And one of the things that's very culturally different than Japan and the West is rating things.

So giving stars on Google or on Yelp or things like that. In our culture, we're very hyperbolic. We have a nice experience, we give it a five. We have a bad experience, we give it a one. Everything kind of always ends up netting out to be like a 4.2 or something like that at a place.

In Japan, you have a nice experience, you give it a three. So what can be really confusing at the onset is someone could tell you, "Oh my God, I love this restaurant. "It's so great and cool." And you go onto Google to see the review that has been given and it's average is like a 3.6.

And you're like, "What? "I would never eat at a place that's a 3.6." Well, in Japan, 3.6 is excellent. And in the food category, I wanna send you right away to Tabalog. It's a website that is their Yelp, but it's taken very seriously. People use it prolifically. And with your translator button on, you can navigate it without any problems.

And you can search by type of food and you can search by destination and really make some informed decisions bearing in mind that really stellar restaurants are gonna have like a 3.8 or a 3.7. And then you can also use the rating to gauge where Japanese people are going and where tourists are going.

And this goes for other things like hotels and sites and bars. If it has kind of a low score, Japanese people are going there. If it has an inflated score, you know that it's more frequented by foreigners. - Funny, it's like you find a place on Google Maps, it's like 4.9.

You're like, "Steer clear, there's no way you got here." - Exactly, "Don't go here, only Americans are going there." - Oh, that's so funny. What about other things about the culture that people might wanna know about going there? How would you describe Japanese people and the culture and things people should be aware of?

- Yeah, I wanna take a beat to talk about how we would relate to Japanese culture. So a lot of people talk about how the Japanese hospitality is like no other, and there's this notion of a motonashi, which is service from the heart. And I hear that buzzword a lot in luxury travel when I work with different hotels all over the world.

They wanna telegraph that they have this elevated sense of hospitality. But what you need to understand about Japanese culture is when you engage with a hospitality product, there's an unspoken social contract where you are also the deferential guest. So the idea of the customer is always right doesn't really exist in Japanese culture.

You are expected to be as well-behaved and as nice as the restaurant staff will be to you. And that is kind of a product of Japan being a culture of shame rather than a culture of guilt. In the West, we think about Catholic guilt or Jewish guilt. I think we all have a pretty good sense of what that means if we have all experienced it.

In Japan, it's more how everyone else is perceiving you. So you are kind of internalizing your own actions and making choices about your behavior based on how everyone else perceives you rather than that moral compass inside telling you what's right or wrong. I know it's like a bit lofty, but you are working as a guest in the way that staff are working to serve you.

- We were at a nice steakhouse in Tokyo once. And I remember one of us spilled our glass of wine on the table. We'd been in Japan for a week and we had internalized this feeling you're describing. And it was like, oh my gosh, should we just leave the restaurant?

Like, can we even stay here after that? We felt so horrible. Everyone was kind of like looking at us like, how could you do that? I feel like I know what you mean. Fortunately, we recovered. We apologized profusely and it was okay. But I have experienced that feeling and it's very different.

- You don't want to be late. You don't want to be late to your reservation. You don't want to be late to meet your guide. And that's part of the social contract as well. Also, you might find funny quirks where if you're staying at a luxury hotel and the staff wants to know what time you're gonna have breakfast in the morning, you could say, oh, I don't know, 9 a.m.

But they might come back to you and say, 8.30 is better. Don't be surprised if they are going to really hold you to that social contract and kind of tweak your experience. But it's all so that they can serve you better. - They're suggesting 8.30 'cause at nine it's crowded and you might not get the best table or your food might be slow or something like that.

And on the sense of punctuality, definitely don't be late to trains either. I can't remember the story, but it was like there was one train that left seconds late and they issued like a national apology. I'm sure you know this story better than me, but like things are not late.

- Yeah, so when I lived in Japan, I was working there and going to the office on days when a train would be late, by more than 10 seconds they would issue you a little white slip of paper, if you needed it, that you could bring to your boss saying, this is the reason that I'm late.

It is not my fault that I am late to work. Everything is extremely on time to the point where I have had tourists reach out to me, friends reach out to me at Tokyo Station wanting to get on the bullet train. They had bought tickets for their 9.30 bullet train to go to Kyoto, let's say.

And they're like, "Well, I'll get to the train station 20 minutes before." But of course, Tokyo Station's one of the biggest stations in the world. Takes about 20 minutes to get to your train and they missed it. - So last thing on culture, is it easy to meet people?

I think one of my favorite things traveling is meeting locals and I find in Japan, either I'm doing it wrong or it's harder to do. - It's extremely difficult and I don't wanna oversimplify the nuance of cultures of shame versus cultures of guilt. This is certainly nothing that we need to unpack more than that when we're trying to cram in a whole travel guide in about an hour.

But the idea is that because this social contract that you have with the people around you, it extends beyond hospitality. It's why everyone is so polite on the trains. It's why everyone walks on certain sides of the roads. It's why Tokyo is the biggest city in the world but it feels more organized than any other city half its size.

The social contract sort of exists that you create this facade, this emote, where you have a side of yourself that you present to other people and then you have a more personal side and a more personal aspect to your personality. So because there is this facade element, you are engaging with people in that manner.

Is it a fake facade? No. Are they two-faced? No. This is a true aspect of your personality but it's the presented aspect of your personality. So it's hard to have that very American, this is how I really feel about something. These are my real emotions. Americans like to tell you when they're mad but they're screaming at you.

And it's like, I get it that you're mad because you're yelling, whereas the Japanese generally are much more nuanced in that nature. So it's an interesting moment where two cultures are touching that may feel limited or inauthentic but it's just a different version of how we present ourselves. - If you had a guide or you met someone that worked at your hotel and you're like, "Hey, do you wanna grab a drink tonight after work?" Would that be like very surprising or shocking and met with a no?

Or how might you go about introducing yourself to a local so you could get to know them and spend time in a casual setting? - Yeah, one of the things that I've discovered is there's actually a lot of opportunities to engage with people in structured ways that could end up leading to a friendship.

So a lot of towns all over Japan, including Tokyo, have free tours that you can sign up for. And those tours are with young Japanese individuals who are motivated to take you around their neighborhood as an opportunity to practice their English or an opportunity to meet foreigners. There are a lot of different websites that offer this and it's a great way to strike up a conversation with someone and use that tour opportunity to ask big questions because they are people that wanna engage with you.

And you can use it less as, "Oh, I wanna discover Shibuya in Tokyo and see cool things," but more as an opportunity to have that budding friendship opportunity. I would definitely try to do one of those. - I love free walking tours. I think they're a great way to get your bearings, but especially in a culture where it's harder to meet someone just at a bar and strike up a conversation.

I think it's a great recommendation. But you mentioned a few things in Tokyo. I wanna make sure we get to what to do. I think let's start here because I assume almost anyone going to Japan will probably, especially on their first trip, end up here. It's one of the most amazing cities in the world.

How do you think about even trying to bring it all together and suggest people experience it? - One of the funny things that I've noticed about Tokyo is when you ask people where they're going on holiday, when they're referring to a European destination, they usually refer to it by city.

So, "Oh, I'm going to Paris on holiday. "I'm going to London." When people talk about going to this country, they say Japan. They don't say Tokyo for some strange reason. I'm always trying to figure out why. And I think it's because it's so far and it's a lot of people's first time they're gonna do things beyond Tokyo, which makes perfect sense.

But I really want you to spend more time in Tokyo than you think you need. A trip that's three nights in Tokyo and three nights in Kyoto doesn't make sense to me. It is a city that has 40 more times the population than Kyoto. It's a city that's four times physically bigger than Kyoto.

So even just on pure numbers, you shouldn't weight Tokyo equal to anything else in the country. It's a place that it has a Brooklyn. Sure, do I need to go check out the Brooklyn? Sure, but there's like 12 Brooklyns. And it's just this infinitely large destination in all the best ways.

And it can be really tough to dig in. So my first thing that I always tell people when they're trying to figure out the city is to Google Yamanote Line Google Maps. Don't go into Google Maps and Google it 'cause it won't work, but just go to like your Google search bar and type Yamanote Line Google Maps.

And there's a bunch of people that have drawn the Yamanote Line within Tokyo. That is a Japan rail line that makes a circle around the central part of Tokyo. Tokyo has 23 wards, which are kind of like boroughs. And this line is like a really good way to conceive of the city geographically.

Now think of that as a clock. Everything that when you hear that's like cool new neighborhoods, street fashion, even going back to like the early 2000s, like Harajuku girls and all of that, that happens at around seven to nine o'clock on the clock. Then all of the older things like Shitamachi, all of the Sensoji Temple, a lot of sort of the older touch points happen around one and two o'clock on the clock.

And then you have the big stations like Shinjuku is at nine o'clock. Ginza, which has Tokyo Station just north of it, also a major hub, that's at like three o'clock. That's a good place to start thinking geographically about the city. - Also, I will say, if you don't look at the Yamanote Line and you look at the entire subway map, it's just like sensory overload.

It's very hard to understand. There are multiple companies operating different rail lines in the city. In some cities, I'm like, oh, look at the subway map. It's a good way to orient yourself. In Japan, I love the recommendation of just starting with the Yamanote Line because otherwise it could be pretty overwhelming.

- Totally. It really looks like fallen confetti in a way. It's all different colors. And what's curious about it is that unlike other cities, it is built from a few different companies. So you have some municipal lines, the Tokyo Metro Line. Then you have a second Metro Line. Then you have suburban lines that were built from companies like a Sears or a Macy's.

So strangely, they share names with a lot of the department stores in Tokyo. And you're gonna use one card to tap through many turnstiles if you're gonna go on a long trip all the way through the city. And 20 years ago, you used to have to get tickets for each one, which was an absolute nightmare.

- So now, I believe it's still just the Suica card. You used to have to get a physical one. Since we won't go too much into travel logistics 'cause it's pretty straightforward and the internet is full of information, I will just add that you can now get your Suica card on your iPhone or your phone in a digital wallet and you don't even need the physical card.

And you can reload it right there. It was super easy. I will say if you're on a budget, it is worth paying attention because I think it still is true. Correct me if I'm wrong, that if you transfer from the, is it Toyosu line to the JR line, you're gonna pay multiple fares.

When you do a Google Maps search from A to B, it'll tell you how to get there and show you the prices. And there might be a fast route and there might be a cheap route and they might be different because changing different lines may be on different companies and have multiple fares.

- That's a really good point. It's something that I think about when I'm there as well. If you're really focused on your budget and you're traveling, say, from the central part of the city to Shimokitazawa, which is a really trendy, perennially cool neighborhood. If you get off one station before Shimokitazawa at Yoyogi Uehara, you save about two thirds of the fare to get there.

- And Google Maps is pretty good. I don't know if there's a better app to find train from point A to point B. I believe it also tells you the fares and everything. That's what we used. Getting the crew together isn't as easy as it used to be. I get it.

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- Yeah, so when you look at the subway map, it's just an, "Oh my God, I don't know how to deal with this. "This city must be so massive." You can walk through a lot of the city, and don't be allergic to walking. What I love to do on my first day back in Japan is a triangle from Omotesando to Harajuku, and then down to Shibuya, and back again.

You can do that triangle, and that's a really fun day. You can take it super slow, and what you're getting in that area is a lot of the key touchpoints of the city. You're getting a lot of the rodeo drive shopping. Shopping in Japan, especially in Tokyo, is a social activity because there's such limited public space, and people have such small apartments.

Shopping is a hanging out endeavor, and this is a really major thoroughfare, Omotesando Dori, to do that. Off of that are little boutiques, and barber shops, and really cool things, those stores that we wish we all had in our hometowns. And then you go all the way to Harajuku, the kind of bombastic hip hop meets little boat peep that still exists.

And right beyond that is the Meiji Shrine, which is absolutely worth a visit. And then you turn down and go to Shibuya, and we've all seen on "Lost in Translation" or in other movies, the Shibuya Crossing, the busiest pedestrian crossing in the world. And then you can triangle your way back to Omotesando again.

I love going to one specific restaurant. It is hugely popular with everyone. It is very well known. It is worth the hype. It's called Maisen. It's tonkotsu, so a breaded pork cutlet. It's 1,100 yen, which currently is about $7. For a full meal, you're gonna have to wait in line.

It's in an old onsen, so in an old bathhouse that's been refurbished. You could start with that. It's very close to Omotesando Station, and then spend the afternoon walking around or do the morning and end with lunch there, bearing in mind that if you wanna go into shops, they tend to open a little later than you would expect.

So 11 o'clock, you'll have all the stores open. - Yeah, I asked my wife, I was like, "What are some of your favorite tips?" And she's like, "Walk everywhere "so that you burn enough calories "that you can have four meals a day." - Absolutely, and I think what's really fun is Tokyo is not an expensive city.

Everyone talks about how it's so incredibly expensive. It's like New York or Paris. It is not expensive at all. The food is bizarrely inexpensive. Where you're gonna get dinged is on accommodation. So if you wanna kind of avoid lines and you're really into the food, do a 10.45 first lunch and then like a 2.45 second lunch.

That way, you'll kind of keep things pretty efficient. I do that all the time. And I will say there are a lot of places, especially if you're going for ramen or something that's not a make a reservation kind of place, where you just wait in line. Like that's just the way it works.

And if you're going with a big group, you're not gonna sit down with six people at a lot of these small restaurants. And so you just line up. I remember it's like two people went in and ate together and then one person ate. It might not be the most social meal when you're going to some of these small restaurants, but it will probably be one of the most delicious meals.

- And one of the other things to keep in mind, especially in Tokyo is don't be allergic to a chain restaurant. You know, if you Google a restaurant that had been recommended to you, like a ramen place or a gyoza place, and oh my God, they have six locations.

I feel like I don't wanna really do that. Don't be dissuaded by a chain. The chain is usually because hospitality spaces are so small. They can only serve eight people at a time and having a second location just enables them to serve more people. Also, the city is so big that if people are traveling an hour to go to their favorite ramen, while suddenly they have a location for it closer to them, it's usually a sign that something's very good rather than it being very corporate.

- Okay, and while we're on food, what are a few things, dining etiquette, tipping, anything there that you wanna give people some overview? - Yeah, you absolutely don't wanna be late to your reservation, as we kind of unpacked before. I would really scout Tabalog if you want some good food recommendations from Japanese people.

There is absolutely no tipping. This isn't even a question of if someone's doing something nice and they're particularly good to leave them a few yen. No, it is a non-tipping culture to the point where oftentimes, at least in the past, it could be perceived as rude because you're sort of insinuating that this person needs more money.

I think we may conceive of server jobs as being interstitial, like, "Well, I wanna be a singer, but I'm a server right now." People bring a certain devotion to their jobs in Japan, whatever they are, and so people are lifelong servers or restaurateurs, so you absolutely don't want to tip.

- And what about mealtimes? Like, I know that in French culture, it's normal. Sit down for lunch, sit there for a few hours, relax, watch the people go by. I feel like in Japan, and you're the expert, but you said it's not expensive. Just to be clear, there are also very expensive restaurants.

Like, you can go to Japan and have a very delicious meal every day for every meal for a month and not spend that much. You could also go to Japan and spend a ridiculous amount of money, but I've had the fortunate pleasure of going to, like, a Michelin-starred sushi place and had dinner in less than an hour.

I would say Japan's not a place to linger after you've eaten a meal, in my experience, but I assume you would second that, or? - Yeah, and I would say also, it's again, not to harp on this idea of the social contract, but if you're eating at an inexpensive restaurant, if you're going for ramen, or if you're going for gyoza or one of those beef bowls, it's sort of like, when you're done, you go.

If you have an empty bowl in front of you, you're sort of no longer welcome. Some places will actually give you a time. I have definitely been to restaurants where they say, you have one hour starting now to eat, and it's not meant to be rude. It is part of that, well, we want to provide you the best service, and the person before you took only their hour.

So now you are also only going to take your hour. There are venues that are where you go and socialize, izakaya, so bars that have bar food. It's a lot less structured. You go, a lot of times you don't need to make a reservation. They have an empty table.

You sit down, you drink, you eat a little, you drink, you eat a little, but everything is very segmented. And I would think of dining in Tokyo and in Japan in that manner. Think in the United States, we have a lot of restaurants that are pan-Japanese. You can order sushi, you can order udon, you can order all these, maybe even Thai food at the same restaurant.

This is the opposite. Every restaurant in Japan usually has one thing that they do exceptionally well, and they do it maybe 10 ways. So you're going to a soba restaurant. You're going to a udon restaurant, a tofu restaurant. And so everything is much more specialized and specific. - Yep, I found that.

If we went through, we could probably go through a long list, but are there some maybe off the beaten path types of food specialties or culinary experiences where it's like, go seek out a place that has great X, Y, or Z? - Yeah, I think a lot of people, like you mentioned, are prone to doing a really expensive sushi experience.

Usually that will be omakase. And I think a lot of us have heard the word omakase. Really what that means is whatever you want. It's actually what you say to the chef at your pleasure. And what I would recommend doing before indulging in that is going to a kaiten sushi, going to a really inexpensive rotating sushi restaurant where they'll have like a little conveyor belt and different things are going to come in front of you and it's going to be very inexpensive.

And take the opportunity to try a few things before you go to the higher end restaurant because as things go higher end, it verges into delicacy territory where you are going to get a lot of fish sperm or raw octopus, things that have textures that aren't familiar to the Western palate.

So I would exercise your palate before you go because you don't want to not eat something in front of the chef that is cooking right in front of you at his pleasure, quote unquote. - That's a great recommendation. Okay, so maybe in the interest of time, are there a few favorite restaurants that you'd recommend people put on a list?

I'm sure there's plenty. - Gosh, yeah. So ramen's a big question. I get a lot of people wondering, I want to do a ramen meal while I'm there. Well, ramen is everywhere now and we have really good ramen in the United States. So rather than going to the Ippudo Mothership, even though we have Ippudo here or the Afuri Mothership, I would recommend trying something a little more offbeat.

So I love kagari ramen. It's in Ginza. They have two locations. It is a chicken ramen. It's a very creamy chicken broth. Describing it does not do it. - It's so good. I've been there, it's so good. - It's unreal how good it is. And why I like that is because you cannot get that anywhere else.

It is a ramen experience in a ramen place, but it is something truly elevated that you will have a hard time finding when you return home. - Yeah, the other place I'll throw out is Kikanbo, which is known for spice. It's a spicy ramen place. You actually pick your ramen on two tiers of spice, both like chili hot spice and the kind of Sancho pepper spice, which is kind of like a Sichuan peppercorn with that like numbing spice.

It's my favorite restaurant in all of Japan. And I'm sure if you don't like spicy food, it would not be your favorite. And this is maybe overhyped, but Sukumen, like dipping ramen, which it's popping up at a few places in the States, but it's kind of a different style of eating ramen.

And Rokuri Nisha in Tokyo Station always has a line, but is, I think, fantastic for trying that out, especially if you find yourself at Tokyo Station with some hours to kill. - In the idea where I said that picking a chain is counterintuitive, eating at a train station seems counterintuitive as well, but you have to remember that there's a massive commuter culture in Tokyo and a lot of these small businesses under Tokyo Station or in and around it are catering to commuter crowds or businessmen at lunch.

So some of the best quick eats, you could build it into your itinerary. If you're like, I'm gonna catch the bullet train to Kyoto at one o'clock, go to Tokyo Station at 11.30, go get gyoza at Min Min in the basement, or try one of the ramen places. They even have incredible French pastries.

Pick one of those and then get on your train. - Great tip. The same, I think, is true about department stores. I feel like the food court in a big department store or shopping center, in the U.S., it's filled with the Panda Express and the McDonald's. I've had some amazing meals at department store food courts.

- Department stores is one of those things that, like a toilet, that was brought from the West and then vastly improved when it touched down on Japanese soil. And so you're gonna see in the basement of a lot of the department stores, they have these huge, huge food courts.

It's not what you think of like a mall food court. It is all of these artisanal stalls peppered throughout with incredible fare. And a lot of that food that you're gonna find down there is both for an elevated lunchtime snack, but it also speaks to a culture of omiyage.

And omiyage is gift giving, something that you're gonna buy for your family when you get home, if you're on a holiday, or if you're going to meet someone at their house for dinner. We all bring a bottle of wine or something like that, but it is in the way that tipping is necessary in America.

Omiyage is necessary in Japan. So you're gonna go down there and find these beautifully wrapped cookies. It's omiyage to go. And if you are gonna engage with local individuals, let's say you're gonna take one of these free tours we've been talking about, bring them omiyage. Bring people you meet, omiyage.

Buy key chains from your hometown or maple syrup if you're Canadian, or something that you can travel with, or go to a department store and buy these omiyage, and you'll go much further than other tourists as far as accessing local culture. - I love that. Any other food tips before we move on?

- This is like the optimizer's dilemma is I love Japanese food, and it's such a broad category that all I wanna do is eat Japanese food while I'm there. But man oh man, the best pizza in the world is in Tokyo, and I know that sounds blasphemous, but Savoy in Azabu Juban is my favorite pizza place on the planet.

It's Neapolitan pies. It is incredible. I highly recommend it. And I would think about trying other types of food while you're there after you've had your Japanese fix because they just do it so dang well. And one of my favorite restaurants totally under the radar, please let's all keep this between ourselves, is Tama.

It's Okinawan food. You're still getting aspects of Japanese culture, but you're seeing how it blends with Taiwanese influence. If you look at a map, Okinawa is much, much closer to Taiwan than it is Japan. So you're gonna see how both cultures inform the cuisine. Tama is very close to Shibuya, very small restaurant, super friendly staff, big smiles.

Just tell them, "Omakase." Just tell them, "Just bring me some stuff." - The two other ones I'll leave. There's a punk rock Itsukaya, I'm gonna butcher this name, Tatamichiya. I'll put it in the show notes. It's just such a cool spot. It's good food, good vibes. For me, just playing cool music.

My wife and I almost go every time. And the other is gonna be a crazy one, but you'll probably hear lots of people tell you, "Go to 7-Eleven and just try all these different crazy snacks." They have in these little plastic bags, pancakes. They have all kinds of flavors, filled with red bean, filled with this, but they actually have a pancake that's very Americanized, which is like filled with maple syrup and a little bit of butter.

And you can put it in the microwave at 7-Eleven and heat it up. And I don't know how, but these plastic bag pancakes might be the most delicious pancakes on the planet at a 7-Eleven. So one, just go to 7-Eleven. There's so many crazy things. I've heard the egg salad sandwiches are delicious, but not my thing.

- I could write of love poetry to those egg salad sandwich or tamago sando. I was gonna say the convenience store, the konbini culture is really fascinating. And to save time, we'll link to an article that I wrote about the 10 things you need to buy at a convenience store.

I fully recommend digging in. - Awesome, that's so great. Okay, so everyone can go look at one of the many guidebooks you've probably written and see, oh, go to the Imperial Palace, go to the Meiji Shrine, that kind of stuff. What are some of your favorites that maybe aren't on the top 10 list?

- Well, there are a lot of opportunities to climb a tower and see the cityscape from high above. Absolutely worth doing. Do not pay to do this. If there's an opportunity where you need to pay to get in an elevator, don't pay. The Tokyo Metropolitan offices in Shinjuku, you can go to the top for free.

It is rammed with tourists. My recommendation would be to go to a high-end hotel. All of their lobbies are lofted over office buildings, and you can get a cocktail in a much more relaxed atmosphere and have that city view. The New Four Seasons in Otemachi, I think, has the best view of the Imperial Gardens.

And right behind it, on a very clear day, usually in winter, you can see Mount Fuji. There is no better view amongst the luxury hotels right now. Now, as far as more off-the-beaten-path things, you're gonna exit the Yamanote line. You're gonna take one of the spokes off of the wheel that are on the suburban rail lines, and you're gonna wanna go to neighborhoods like Shimokitazawa.

You're gonna wanna go to Kichijoji or Daikanyama. Another popular one is Nakameguro. And I even like Geogakka, which is even further. These are more neighborhood-y, so a mix of small, traditional houses, and then some newer builds, everything really crammed together. Little stores, boutiques, mom-and-pop shops next to more corporate things.

I know that I just rambled off five different neighborhoods. Write 'em down, give 'em a Google. You're gonna find everything that you want in those. There's a really good donut shop just beyond Shimokitazawa called Haritsu that is in what seems like a little tea house, but they serve very modern donuts.

Give that a whirl. Promise you won't be disappointed. - I'll throw one out. They're always changing, but there's a company called TeamLab that does these really interesting, immersive experiences. The ones we did, Borderless, and one other one I can't remember, maybe Planets. I don't know which ones are running now.

It seems that there's always one in Tokyo. Highly recommended. Kind of wild, interesting, immersive art with lights and maybe sounds, maybe textures. They're always changing, but those were so awesome that we went to one, and the next day we were like, "We have to go to the other." - I'm a huge fan.

I went to one right before the pandemic and did it twice in that day. I was like, "I need to have the whole adventure all over again." It's very sensory, a lot of textures playing with light. There's water. You do want to dress appropriately for the one that you have to walk through water, and with pants that you can easily pull up.

Highly recommend that as well. That's out in Odaiba. Odaiba was created in Tokyo Bay using garbage to build man-made islands. Even though it's an indoor thing, you actually should plan that on a very nice day, because once you're out there, it's really nice to walk around and take in the city from out there.

It's sort of this pleasure island, sort of Vegas-esque destination with a lot of really cool outdoor stuff. - And while we're that direction, do you have a strong opinion on whether people should be going to, I'm gonna butcher it again, the fish market. Let's just leave it at- - Tsukiji.

- Tsukiji. - Well, so it's no longer in Tsukiji. - If I remember right, it's still that direction, right? - Yes, it is. - Okay, okay. - So it's further out. So Tsukiji was, is the biggest fish market in the world, and then it moved to a bigger location in Toyosu, and in the remains of Tsukiji are still a lot of little fresh fish, sashimi, sushi restaurants and bars.

As far as wanting to do the fish auction and different things like that, that's something that you need to talk to a private guide about. They all have different kinds of access, and they all have different opinions on it, how you wanna leverage your jet lag to get up in the middle of the night to go see it.

But I think Tsukiji is really close to Ginza. It's walkable to Ginza if you wanna go check it out and try that intro sushi that we were talking about before. There's a chain of sushi called Sushi Zanmai, and they're really famous in Japan because the owner is this Colonel Sanders character, come to life, who always famously makes the biggest bid at the fish auction.

He always buys the most expensive fish of the year. And there's a lot of locations all over Tokyo, and that's a really good place to do your sort of intro to more adventurous sushi and sashimi. - A couple others for me, the Design Sites 2121 Museum I thought was really cool.

Obviously, it's a museum, so exhibits change. And I'm dying to get your take on recommending Robot Restaurant. - Well, there's a lot of different themed restaurants all over Japan and Tokyo. Once, as a kind of wink, I went to the Ninja restaurant for my birthday one year. It was super fun and cheesy.

And of course, you know what you're signing up for. I shy away from the "Japan is weird" trip. I don't think that you're getting a lot of true insight. I think it would be sort of akin to going to like a baseball-themed restaurant in America or something that is taking a piece of Americana and hyperbolizing it.

And it's all just for show and for giggles. That's not really my vibe. You could design an entire itinerary of "Japan is weird." In the Akihabara neighborhood, there are these things called maid cafes where all the cafes have a different theme, and you go and your server takes on a role.

So there's one where you get to play the older brother and she plays the younger sister. There's one where you get to be the prince and she's the princess. That is sort of culturally curious. Might be a little bit hard to access if you don't have Japanese. But I don't love doing something for the sake of zoo-ifying culture.

- Almost every memorable experience I have skews on the authentic side of eating at a small place with amazing food or going to see something interesting. So I don't disagree. - That's my soapbox moment for the episode. - Maybe one more is if your stay in Tokyo aligns with one of the sumo times of year that sumo wrestling happens in Tokyo, I think that's an interesting experience, but it's a very specific time.

It's not like baseball where there's a game every week. - Yeah, absolutely. That is sort of in the eastern part of the city, sort of beyond the two o'clock, three o'clock, if we're talking about the clock map. Ryogoku, that area. Again, this is something that you wanna enable with a private guide.

I don't think you wanna do the zoo aspect. I think that there are ways to engage in a more culturally curious manner. I would honestly avoid the Skytree, which is also sort of out in that part of town. It was built to economically stimulate that area of town, which is a bit older and not as modernized.

It's just a big tower in the sky with a bunch of shops around it. It's pretty far from where you're gonna be staying likely, because I would recommend trying to stay a little bit closer to the sort of six to nine o'clock part of the clock. It's just not worth the schlep.

- Let's do some quick hits on drinks, whether it's nightlife or coffee. I'll do mine first to try to keep the speed going. There's a really cool coffee shop called Deus Ex Machina, which is like, can't remember the neighborhoods, but you can Google it. I'll put it in the show notes, which is one of our favorite coffee shops in Tokyo.

And then for drinks and stuff, my favorite bars, I'm just gonna list them, are Bar Trench, Bar Tram, and Bar Benfidich. - Benfidich. - Yeah. Again, the coffee, tea, nightlife areas. - We'd go to Nakameguro, which is like a very cool neighborhood. That's where they have a massive multi-story Starbucks reserve that you walk by (laughs) and kind of ogle at the fact that there's a 90-minute wait to get in.

And then you go up the street to a place called Breakfast Club, which is this Japanese version of an American diner run by these two cool kind of DJ guys who just have this really cool breakfast-all-day-everyday vibe with diner coffee. And it's just so much fun. I love going there.

Great music. Kind of breakfast-meets-bar. As far as coffee goes, I made the mistake of putting it in The Lonely Planet about 12 years ago when I was working on the Japan Guide. But in Shimokitazawa, you want to go to Bear Pond. A little hole in the wall. Massively popular.

Do not try to take a photo. They will be mad at you. But excellent espresso. Any thoughts on nightlife? I feel like I'm past my nightlife prime, other than getting some good cocktails. But anything you want to add to that category? Back in the day when I was a student, the metro stops at around one and then starts back up at five.

At 12.50, you're like, "Okay, guys, are we going home "or are we going out all night "and getting on the five o'clock train?" And usually it meant going out all night and getting on the five o'clock train. Back then, like 20 years ago, it was Shibuya and Roppongi were like the big club places.

And that's kind of changed and evolved. Shibuya has had, there's sort of like a love hotel kind of seedy side to the back of Shibuya that is evolving right now and it's becoming a much more commercial and wholesome destination. There are a lot of new high-end hotels that are going in.

If you want to give something an interesting try, I would try like a multi-course cocktail. If you're really into cocktails, I'm very happy with highball or like a whiskey on the rocks. If you're a cocktail person, there are a handful of different cocktail restaurants where you're doing like four cocktails over a couple hours and each one is very different and they're paced as though you're having a meal.

Just like we talked about pizza and coffee and everything, taking cocktails to the next level, there are some of the best cocktail bars and cocktails in the world in Japan. I feel like you could pick anything and just say that and it would probably be true, but I have a lot of personal experience on the cocktail front to say that it is true.

There is this through theme also of intentionality. Every business owner brings this incredible intentionality to their products. Like Ben Fittich is incredible in that way where the bartender is making everything involved. I've been to restaurants where the chef is even making the silverware that you're using. So this incredible intentionality just permeates food and beverage.

And if you are a cocktail nerd, a mixology nerd, you're really not gonna find any other better cocktails on the planet. - Yeah, I completely agree. I have two questions. One, I don't know the answer to. I didn't have kids when I went, so you've written guidebooks, so I'm sure you've had to think about this.

What's the vibe like with bringing kids, bringing them to restaurants, that kind of stuff? - That's a really good question, especially because it's a country that we always see in the news that is shrinking in population. So there are not a lot of kids out and about. And also, how do you bring a kid who's very young and how do you control their behavior to abide by the social contract of being a good guest in different places?

Well, I mean, not everyone is expecting your three-year-old child to be perfect. Do you take that person to a $300 omakase? No, because you're not bringing that person to that $300 omakase at home either. I have seen, because of the pandemic, maybe a lot more green spaces opening up.

There's like a beautiful walk that you can do in Shimokitazawa now that they buried the track between three stations. And now that has been turned into really cool walking paths and gardens and shops. I would try to keep kids sort of more in those areas. And there's a lot of dining in that manner where you can eat out on a patio and then it's like a little bit less intense to have your kids.

I will say from all of my experiences in Japan, it's like lots of walking, moving around, eating four meals a day. Like, it would have been hard to do the kind of experiences I've done with kids. I'm sure there's a different itinerary for a family-friendly trip, but I think for us, we're just like, maybe we're just gonna wait a few years till the kids are a little older.

I'm not saying it's impossible. I know the kind of Japan trip we love having, and I feel like we might not get it if we go with infants and toddlers. - I agree, and I don't wanna discourage families from booking a family trip to Japan, but I would say that the trip that you think you want to have will be difficult to execute with a toddler.

- Yeah, especially if that is cocktails and lots of street food. Is there any last thing in Tokyo that we didn't mention or you're like, I gotta share this? Even if it's such a secret that we keep it out of the show notes. - Well, I do have one ultra-favorite restaurant.

I've probably celebrated about 10 birthdays in Japan, maybe 15, and many of them have happened at that restaurant, but you're gonna have to DM me on Instagram for the name of it. Sorry. - Ooh, I like it. I like it. Okay. - It's a yakitori restaurant, so it's chicken and vegetables, rather, on skewers.

Small place, great vibe, incredible drinks. - I was gonna call this your best guest secret, and you're literally gonna keep it a little bit of a secret for the episode, but we'll link to your Instagram in the show notes. It's just brandpress. I appreciate that. I'm gonna send you a DM right after this.

Okay, we gotta move on to Kyoto. There is an infinite amount of things that we could keep talking about in Tokyo. Our next partner has a product I literally use every day. I started taking AG1 from Athletic Greens because I wanted an easy way to get my daily nutritional insurance and optimize my immune system, and it's been in my routine for almost a year, because when you take one scoop of AG1, you're absorbing 75 high-quality vitamins, minerals, whole food source superfoods, probiotics, and adaptogens to help you start your day right.

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I just wanna thank you quick for listening to and supporting the show. Your support is what keeps this show going. To get all of the URLs, codes, deals, and discounts from our partners, you can go to allthehacks.com/deals. So please consider supporting those who support us. To go back to what you said earlier, I feel like every time we go to Japan, there are some countries where you'd come for your next trip and you'd skip the main city 'cause you've been there before.

Every time we're like, let's go back to Tokyo, there's so much more to uncover. But we've gotta move on. You said there's two places that everyone should consider going, it's Tokyo and Kyoto. How do you think about Kyoto being organized to the extent that's helpful? Okay, so the first mistake that people make when they're doing a trip to Japan and they do Tokyo and Kyoto is they think Tokyo, new, Kyoto, old.

Big mistake. You're missing so many cool things in Tokyo by only focusing on the new. And you're missing so much of the essence of Kyoto by only focusing on the old. And that's places of worship and castles and stuff like that. The other mistake that people make with Kyoto is that because they have old in their brain, they wanna stay at a traditional inn.

And part of staying at a ryokan is that you're gonna be served dinner and you're gonna be served breakfast and it's all about fostering relaxation. It really seems antithetical to the time that you're gonna spend in the city, which is gonna be just as excited about getting around and seeing all the temples and seeing all the cafes and experiencing the culture.

So I would leave that traditional inn, that ryokan experience for the countryside and not marry it to your Kyoto experience. Now, happy to indulge in all the oldness that is Kyoto. It is the ancient capital. It is an incredible city with some of the oldest cultural relics that remain intact in the world.

But at its core, it's also a place of learning. It's a college town. It's much smaller than Tokyo and there's a thriving student culture there that is well worth tapping into. And that's tea shops, cafes, really cool clothing stores and boutiques, getting into handicrafts and these old family businesses.

You should absolutely pick a handful of temples that you wanna see and appreciate that culture. But a lot of people treat those temples the way that people in Europe treat a church. They go and they're just like, "Wow, opulence, the cathedral, super cool," without delving too much into the history aspect of it all.

And it's okay if you're allergic to, "Oh, this temple was made in 1636," or da-da-da-da. That's fine, I'm kind of allergic to that as well. But just make sure to bear in mind to have a broader experience in Kyoto than you might expect. You're gonna see a lot of people walking around in traditional attire.

A lot of people come back from trips to Japan and they say, "Oh my God, I saw a geisha in Kyoto." You did not see a geisha. You saw a Taiwanese traveler who rented her kimono for the day and they dress you up. This is a really popular thing for Korean, Singaporean, Taiwanese travelers to do.

The geisha culture that you hear about from members of a geisha in Gion, one of the geisha districts, is much more behind closed doors. - And is that something that there's a way to learn, appreciate, and experience and understand it? Or is it one of the few things that is hard for Westerners to be a part of?

- This is something that you're gonna have to plan while in advance. This is something that a lot of people have gained access to over years of building relationships. And there are pricey, personalized, luxury experiences where you can go spend time with a maiko, like a geisha in training, or a geisha and have a really mind-expanding experience about what that culture looks like.

I mean, it is on the decline. It's not what it was a long time ago. This is something, a bit of former glory, but it is still there for you to consume. But the best way to do it would be to pick a luxury travel planner and book that experience through them as a one-on-one experience.

- And this is something that we didn't mention earlier when we talked about restaurants, but I find that unlike many places in the world where it's just pop up, open table, make your reservation, search online for, book a tour, there are still a ton of restaurants and experiences that if you don't have a travel planner or a higher-end hotel concierge, you just can't do.

Is that the experience you've seen, or is there another way to access some of these restaurants or experiences? - That's pretty much right. And as someone who cut their teeth writing guidebooks for Lonely Planet, I am all about trying to enable as many opportunities for travelers and readers on their own that I can, but a lot of these things are guarded.

So you will need a luxury travel planner who has made 20 or 30 years of inroads in the destination, who forged that relationship with the Geisha house to make that happen. So if that is something that's a priority to you and you wanna have the real experience, you are going to pay for it.

- I'll caution people. One option is if you do wanna have one of those experiences, either book through a luxury travel provider or at a higher-end hotel, you don't have to do it the whole time. So I tell people, there are some restaurants that are very difficult to get a reservation at without a high-end travel organizer or concierge or hotel, but you could book one or two nights at that hotel.

I was gonna say at the end, we may be talking a bonus episode about how to do that with points, and then line up some of those things that you need support from, and then you could move to another hotel that's not as expensive if you don't. Keep all that in mind.

There are an unlimited number of great restaurants experiences you can have without that, but for anyone listening who's trying to have one of those kind of coveted or higher-end exclusive experiences or dining at three Michelin star restaurant, it's not as simple as just going online and booking. - Yeah, I should say on background too, I was in Japan right as everything was shutting down in 2020 and the reason that I was there is I was doing a very intense audit of all of the hotels in Tokyo for Conde Nast Traveler, all the ones that were opening up in anticipation of the Olympics.

Of course, that was completely curtailed and my editor was like, "Get home, get home. "They're closing the borders." So when it reopened, I went back to complete that audit. So I stayed at dozens of hotels in Tokyo and my editor, when I got home, she was like, "Okay, Brandon, what did you see "that was different than before the pandemic?" And I said, "Well, you know what?

"It's that all of these hotels now wanna be "the purveyor of your experience." Because in all of this time, hotels, they were really hurt during the pandemic, so they're trying to find different ways to bring in more revenue. So a lot of hotels were doing really compelling F&B, food and beverage, bringing in locals to eat at the restaurants in case the tourism dwindles again for some unknown reason.

The other thing that's happening is hotels are offering tours. And I'm not talking about the group tour thing where a bunch of you are going around with a flag. Hotels like Aman in Tokyo have a secret concierge service where they will take you to local artisans to have personalized experience where they will cut you kimono and yukata robes, or they will hand etch chopsticks for you, or you can do fan design.

These are all exclusive opportunities that Aman offers. All of the hotels are getting into this. So even if you kind of cringe at the idea of having a travel planner, one of those travel services, squeeze out a little bit more from your concierge at these high-end hotels because they want to give you more than just a room.

And I would say the Aman is probably at the top of the mark, but we've stayed at the Hilton, which is not near Aman prices, but at a lot of the very big established hotels at that level, there are still incredible concierges. The Hilton concierge was able to help with a number of reservations and activities that would have been much harder for me to do myself.

Obviously, some of the more exclusive things might be catered or offered at the higher-end hotels like the Aman, but I had a ton of success at even just the Hilton Tokyo. - Totally. So back in Kyoto, one of the things, like sort of I mentioned in Tokyo, my first day I like to do a triangle to connect three little areas.

For Kyoto, my thing that I always do when I go is I rent a bicycle. And I usually cheat and rent one of those electric ones that helps you along the way. Kyoto's very hilly. It's sort of hemmed between two mountains in a way. It's very different than Tokyo in that it's very low-lying.

A lot of Japanese people say it's very European. There's a river that flows through it, but because traffic is much less and everything moves a little slower, it's really easy to get around on a bicycle. Just remember that you're on the left side of the road. And it's a great way to explore because it's such a small city relative to Tokyo.

It's really hard to get lost. You can go up and down different streets. You can pop in and out of different neighborhoods. And you're never gonna be woefully far from your hotel. - When my wife and I went over 15 years ago to Japan for the first time, the first thing we did was we rented a bike from the train station.

We just set our bags. I don't remember a lot of how the logistics of that happened, but I do remember we rented the bike right at the train station and went and explored. And I think we came back and got our luggage 'cause we had a late check-in. So I love that.

I'm sure in the lonely planet for Kyoto, there's top 21 experiences that you should have. Let's skip those and maybe share some of your favorite things that people should do or see or eat or anything. - One of the things that I guarantee is not in any of the guidebooks yet is the Park Hyatt Kyoto just opened.

And so Park Hyatt Tokyo is the super famous Lost in Translation Hotel in Shinjuku, has the New York bar, always rammed with people. Park Hyatt Kyoto is very close to Kiyomizu-dera, which is one of the most famous places of worship. Absolutely a must, kind of a worth the hype temple, but it's right in the heart of the action.

And it's accessible to everyone because they have a bar totally different than the one in Tokyo, but this bar overlooks the city. The one very famous pagoda. And I couldn't hold a conversation when I was there because I was so mesmerized by the view. It is just one of those cost you the price of a cocktail.

It costs $18 price of a cocktail to have this incredible view. And because it's so new, no one's talking about it yet. So it's a very small bar with a very few amount of seats, but if you're going really soon, absolutely go and do this. The hotel is extremely expensive and is only for a certain type of traveler, but this is something that I feel is pretty accessible to everyone and absolutely worth doing at sunset.

In the wintertime, that sunset is oddly early. So if you're okay having a drink at 4.45 p.m., absolutely go for it. This was like my one revelation of Kyoto on this particular trip a few weeks ago. Did my screen share just pop up? You did. Just shared a photo of having that cocktail at that bar with that pagoda in the background.

We stayed at the Park Hyatt in Kyoto and you say very expensive, but I will say Chase transfers to Park Hyatt on points is maybe one of the best deals in the world. So it is actually accessible if you can find the availability. The hotel was amazing. I will say we stayed there like weeks after it opened and it was very rough around the edges.

I have no doubt that the Park Hyatt has cleaned up those rough edges, but we had some frustrating experiences for a hotel of that level. But wow, the bar was amazing. We couldn't even get into the restaurant at the hotel, which is next to the bar and had an awesome view.

So I can't speak to it because even though we stayed there four nights, they were like, "Oh, sorry, we don't have any tables." It was such a strange thing to not be able to eat at the hotel restaurant on a few days notice, but wholeheartedly recommend the hotel. It's so beautiful and very inaccessible with dollars, but accessible with points.

Hyatt's great for that. A lot of people level up to the Grand Hyatt in Tokyo, which is cheaper than the Park Hyatt brand. It's sort of one level down. That hotel, decor wise, it's long in the tooth. The location is great. You're really right in the middle of town and it's a little splurge if you're more of a budget traveler and you have those points, go for the Grand.

- So I'll share a couple things from Kyoto from our trip that are just kind of quick hits that I really enjoyed. So bar rocking chair. I went one night with my brother-in-law and we were like, "Do we even have to leave?" Like, "Should we just stay here, keep coming back?" - I love that place.

- It's such a cool bar. It was also very funny because my brother-in-law is like six, five. He barely fit in part of that bar. There's a tea shop called Yugen, which serves matcha and it was just wonderful. I say this about so many parts of Japan, but a very beautifully designed matcha shop that I really loved.

And then I already mentioned the pizza shop at the beginning and Coco Raya was just an itsukaya that we went to and had a great time. I'm not gonna say it's the best itsukaya in the world, but if you're looking for one, we had a great time there. I'm gonna add a tea destination as well, Ippodo.

So not Ippudo, like the ramen, but Ippodo. They're really close to the Ritz-Carlton and they do tea tasting. So think of it exactly in like a wine tasting kind of way. You can sign up to do a tea tasting. The taste is incredible. The packaging is so beautiful. This is a good omiyage for someone that you really like back at home or someone that you're meeting in Japan.

Has a very storied reputation in the country. One of the places that I wanna recommend is Monk. It's a restaurant that my editor at Bloomberg, she was in Japan with her husband a few years ago and she ate there and I was in Tokyo at the time and she called me and she was like, "Get your butt down to Kyoto.

"You need to go to this restaurant "and you need to write about it." Basically what it is takes the sort of multi-course kaiseki idea in Japanese cuisine, but it flips it Italian style. And instead of having a hearty rice dish, which usually punctuates the end of a kaiseki meal, it's a pizza.

And I really like, let's not obsess about pizza in Japan. People are gonna think we're weird. But it's run by Chef Imai and he brings this monastic discipline to his food. And I believe after our story ran, it found its way to a Netflix Chef's Table episode. It's well worth checking out and also give yourself a little bit of time to walk around that part of town.

It's a little more residential. It's a little more out of the way. You're not gonna see other tourists over there. It's beautiful. There's a beautiful path that goes through the nature of that neighborhood too. So kind of bundle that experience together. - Any specific types of food that you're in Kyoto, Kyoto's the place to try X or Y?

- Man, that's a good question. I did wanna give one suggestion that is along those lines, but a little unexpected. It's gin. There's a gin tasting room called Kinobi. Kinobi kind of came out the gate, I wanna say about five, six years ago now. And as someone who writes about a lot of different destinations all over the world, I am constantly being pitched a local gin, constantly.

People are making gin out of sawdust at this point. And I was fascinated by Kinobi. They're using a lot of the local botanicals. There's like Kyoyasai, basically the local Kyoto harvest, which really informs this gin. And I'm admittedly not a big gin person. I'm more of a brown spirits person.

This is absolutely my favorite. And in the quiet of the pandemic, they opened a tasting room and it is well worth going to try. And speaking of Kyoyasai and this local harvest, this is really what the area is all about. And one of the best restaurants that it's not gonna break the budget, it's called Yasai Hori, Hori is the name of the chef.

There's a lot of indoor shopping arcades in Kyoto, and it's off of one of those, really inconspicuous. It has two tables and like eight bar tops. The only staff member is chef. And he's gonna do really honest food. I think a lot of American food is overly sauced. This is the antidote.

This is mushrooms on an open fire. This is avocado and red onion. This is very simple cuisine that the ingredients are just screaming flavor at you. - This is not a good thing to be talking about right before lunch. I'm like, do I eat here or just go to SFO and take a trip to Japan?

(laughing) It seems like we bring up a lot of food and drinking, but are there other things to spend the time in between eating or drinking in Kyoto, other than a few of the shrines that you think are worth highlighting? - You're not gonna find that Brooklyn-esque quality that you do in Tokyo with certain neighborhoods that are just so effortlessly cool, but it's well worth picking a couple neighborhoods in Kyoto as well and just doing the back alley walks.

You're just gonna see a lot of businesses that have been around for 300 or 400 years, places that sell very specific things, like 11 types of scissors. There was a shop that I went to that sold needles for sewing that had little sculptures on the tip, on the eye, like a little frog that you had to look at through a magnifying glass.

Little specific shops like this, and that you're only gonna find by doing a back alley walk in neighborhoods like Gion, in Sanjo, different places like that. - And culturally, is it okay if you see a little shop, even if you're not gonna buy a needle or a pair of scissors, to walk in and look around, is that okay?

- Absolutely. You can go into any shop that's open, thank them for their time, express interest in what they're doing. A lot of people are really proud of the things that they're doing. I was in a small town on Lake Biwa on my last trip, about an hour outside of Kyoto, called Hikone, and went for udon, and at the end of the meal, the man who ran the udon shop, his wife, was making origami, and when the bill was paid, she handed me an origami crane, and she was like, "Here, I made this." And she was just so proud of it, and I kept it.

It's in my office now, and you just find great pride in what everyone's doing, so engage with those people. Usually the people that are in the shop, it's their stuff. - I will say, this translates to anytime you're getting anything, even if it's the concierge giving you their business card.

I think in American culture, it's like, "Thanks, throw it in your pocket," and I find that anytime you're getting anything, just holding it and accepting it and appreciating it is a sign of respect that goes a long way and is much more the standard of receiving things in Japan.

- Yeah, if you're expecting someone to be an engaged shop owner, be an engaged customer. This is, again, that give and take. You're part of the social dynamic. Not everything is just coming to you. - So, we said we were gonna not go as deep on other places as we did on Tokyo and Kyoto, but I do wanna highlight some of them, because I think people who have that extra few days where they wanna go see something more than just Tokyo and Kyoto, or people who are coming back and wanna see something else, you did a high level of the four islands and a little bit of the vibe on each, but what are some emerging destinations or interesting places that you'd suggest people go to?

I really only have one, so I'll go first, which is we found this hotel, and it was kind of what you were describing, where we were looking for that kind of traditional, the eat breakfast and dinner in the hotel, not really go anywhere, relax experience, and so we just took a trip to a region called Niigata, and we stayed at this amazing design hotel called Satoyamo Jujo, which I would say it's not quite a ryokan, but in that we weren't sleeping on tatami mats and it wasn't that traditional, but it was amazing, and that town was known for soba, so we walked around town and walked by a school, and it was definitely not a popular destination in the season we went, but that was just an awesome hotel and relaxing experience for a couple days, and that's all I have, so I'm gonna turn the entirety of non-Tokyo, Kyoto, Japan over to you.

So I'll circle back on that idea of what are the ingredients for a perfect first or fourth trip to Japan, which is old and new, mountains and sea, and I think all of them are really easy to hit. You can hit them all very close to Tokyo, even if you only have a shorter trip.

I spent quite a bit of time in Kyushu in the southernmost main island this time around because I am a major fan of onsen culture, hot spring culture, and because the islands are so active volcanically, there is just hot water gurgling up everywhere, to the point where there are hotels in Tokyo that pipe in hot water from miles and miles and miles away to have that mineral water bath within the property.

Kyushu is sort of the motherland of onsen culture, more so than places like Hakone, which you might have heard of a lot because it's very close to Tokyo, so a lot of people go there. Kyushu has an Oita prefecture, and I should say, as an aside, prefectures are like states, and they all have different reputations, and they all have different local foods and vibes, and they all kind of compete against each other.

Oita prefecture on Kyushu has two major onsen towns. One's called Beppu, and one's called Fuin. Both have a ton of places to stay. There's an international university in Beppu, and a lot of people that go there work in some of these hotels, so the level of English in Beppu is better than in Tokyo, which is very confusing.

And you can choose from a variety of types of properties. There's an intercontinental in Beppu, for example, if you want the comfort of something familiar, or you can go all the way down to a very traditional inn while you're sleeping on tatami. If you've ever looked at a photo of Beppu, it looks like it's exploding.

There's just steam coming up from every vent as you walk down the street. It's really cool. Yufuin is in the mountains, and it's a little bit more rural. Major tourism destination as well, as far as onsen and hot springs culture goes. There is a very prescribed way that you soak in onsen.

You must wash yourself before you go in, and you must be naked. And if that's uncomfortable for you, IHG hotels have a variety of hot spring hybrid hotels all throughout the country. I would just look at their Japan offerings. They have a property in Hakone, for example, that you can go in your bathing suit, and you can go, if you're traveling with someone of the opposite gender, you can also go and bathe together.

- I'm gonna give the opposite advice, which is if you're uncomfortable with it, try to get comfortable with it. - Oh yeah, I am all about the real onsen experience. - You're right, I shouldn't just give the caveat. Absolutely dive in headfirst, pun intended. This is absolutely something that you can try, and in the way that you always see in the news every once in a while, so-and-so, oldest man in the world, what is his secret to living till 126?

So many of these people are from Kyushu, from Beppu, and they all talk about how hot spring culture is so important to them, and it's so profound and widespread in Oita Prefecture that a lot of houses don't have running water because they have an onsen down the street, and every morning and every evening they go and soak, and they talk with their friends.

There's a major social component to this as well. - That sounds like a place that I've never been and want to go. It left off Hakone 'cause we did go there on an early trip, and it's beautiful, Mount Fuji in the background. It was wonderful. Any other thoughts on whether a day trip or a side trip from Tokyo or Kyoto, or even flight somewhere else, or train?

- Yeah, I think you're on the right track with a trip out to Hakone. It's just this weird prescribed thing that a lot of operators have people do, and it's just become this sort of golden circle thing where you're like, "Okay, I'm going to Tokyo and Hakone, "and then Kyoto, and we're done." Outside of Hakone, in the greater Fuji area, there are some incredible places to stay and some incredibly beautiful and natural environments.

There's the five Fuji lakes. I would have a look into those. Those are nestled right under the mountain, all have incredible views. That is something that's specifically different than the Hakone experience. I really like Shuzenji as a little town. There's a really cool place to stay there, a couple cool places, ranging from budget to high end.

This is small town Japan, and it's really close to Tokyo. North of Tokyo is Nikko, a major UNESCO site. A lot of people, for some reason, do it as a day trip from Tokyo. Do not do it as a day trip. It is so far, you will be tired, and you're missing the beauty of it, which is the evening after all the crowds are gone.

You can go see the UNESCO protected sites, but for me, Lake Shuzenji is stunning, and there are a few really cool places to stay on the lake there. Though a big question that I get is, how do I do Kyoto without going to Kyoto? Because the crowds, there's already conversations about how to curb overcrowding in Kyoto.

So a lot of people are opting to go to Kanazawa instead of Kyoto. Kanazawa, back in feudal times, different feudal entities measured their wealth by rice, how much rice they were making. Rice was currency. And after the stronghold in Kyoto, Kanazawa, the Maeda clan, were the second wealthiest. There's a lot of that old culture still intact.

One of the most beautiful gardens in all of Japan, and the Japanese rank their gardens, and there are three that are considered the nicest, and one of them is in Kanazawa. This is that little Kyoto that you're gonna get with far less people. It's much smaller, but if you're allergic to crowds, this is the place for you.

And Kaga Prefecture, the area around it, is also a teeming onsen destination. I have mixed feelings about Hokkaido. Grew up in Canada, I was born with skis on, love a good ski trip. Hokkaido has japao, incredible powder. I have really mixed feelings about going to Japan for the skiing.

I think you can get great skiing in Canada. You can get great skiing in the US. I think it's a bit of a shame to devote your Japanese holiday to something that you can do really well in other places. So I'm a bit allergic to recommending a ski trip with your Japan trip.

Instead, I would pick places that you're really getting culturally fulfilled. - We love to ski. We have not done skiing in Japan for that reason. I think a part of us is like, "Oh, it'd be so interesting to do that, but how could we prioritize that over all?" I don't think I've ever been to all these amazing other prefectures, islands even.

We've stayed so central. Gosh, I feel like there is an infinite more Japan for us to see. The fact that you feel the same way after 20 years makes me feel like it'll just be on the rotation constantly. And it's probably the country we've been to the most, other than of course, where we live.

Any other final thoughts, tips, things that you have on your notes that maybe we should have said earlier, but didn't, that are worth sharing? - I think we're pretty, I have a couple of random ones. - Okay, go. - So one, shopping is fantastic, but if you are in any way very tall in the US, it is a very interesting experience.

I think I'm like a 2XL. I couldn't find any shoes and pants fit me like capris, and I'm only six feet tall. So keep that in mind when shopping, because it could be a difficult experience if you fall. My brother-in-law basically couldn't buy anything because he was so tall.

So that was one. On the general side, we didn't talk at all about Osaka, but I would say, as you mentioned before we started recording, it's known as the food city, but the entire country is a food country. So you don't necessarily need to go there and go out of your way.

But if you are there, fantastic Okonomiyaki. I believe Osaka is kind of known for it. That's a thing to hit up there. And there's a bar in Osaka called Bible Club, which was one of the coolest like speakeasy-ish bars I've ever been to, and I'd put that on your list.

- I would also just add that, this is maybe something that you don't wanna hear. It is the best place to just indulge in the joy of exploration. And it can be really hard for FOMOists, but you're not gonna go wrong. You can go to New York City and go wrong.

You could end up at an Olive Garden by accident. You know what I mean? I always wanna tell readers of my guidebook, go to Ebisu Station in Tokyo and go to Ebisu Yokocho. You can Google it, you'll find where it is. It is like a little kind of street foodie indoor area, and just pick one of the stalls.

You're gonna see they all cook one thing. What's the thing that looks delicious to you? Rather than hyper-focusing on the one place that you have to go, there are tens of thousands of restaurants to choose from. So many of them are incredible. It's such a great destination to come home and say, "I found this place." You get to have a little bit of ownership over your own experience.

Certainly talk to your friends about the things that they've done. Certainly go to the places that we're recommending here. But take the opportunity to add serendipity into your schedule. It's the best country to do it. - I love that recommendation. Half of the recommendations I have are just places we randomly found.

Certainly, the rest of them might be things that we found in books or on tabloid or anything. The one last thing I'm gonna ask you is because someone wrote in and asked about Naoshima Island, do you have any thoughts on visiting there? - So the Satoshi Inland Sea has a lot of different islands.

And if you dip into the history of how that all came about, it's really fascinating. It's a really compelling conservation project to redevelop a destination that was deemed undesirable. Rather than just having a pit stop, I would recommend going to a variety of the different islands in that area.

It's a really upcoming destination, not just because of all the art that's there, but new and interesting hotels are being built. There's a big push to keep populations in smaller places and not have everyone move to Tokyo or Osaka. There's a lot of government money that's being spent, and that is one of the destinations that's continuing to grow.

So I would expand your holiday there rather than it just being a beat. - I haven't been there, so that's yet one more thing to put on the list for the next trip, which if we're gonna try to do it without kids, it's gonna be shorter than we wanted or farther away in the future.

So this has been amazing. As I think to the future of episodes like this, I'm gonna start to wonder whether it makes sense to try to do a country. It was always a gamble whether we do countries or cities. So I appreciate you indulging in this crazy idea. And obviously you've written blog posts, articles, stories, guidebooks, all about Japan.

Where can people stay on top of everything you're doing and everything you're up to? - I write for a variety of different publications. So I keep an archive of those articles at brandimpressor.com. I'm active on my Instagram, shooting real-time photos of the destinations that I'm in. My handle is @brandpress, the first five letters of my first name and last name.

And you can find all of my stories on Japan in every publication from "Travel and Leisure," "Bloomberg," "Cutting Ass Traveler," "The Daily Beast," and so forth. And I'll send them your way so that you can have a look. - That's awesome. We'll put some of those in the show notes.

But I asked Brandon what would make this a huge win for him for coming on for an hour. And on the recording mark, we're almost at two. And he said, "You know what? "I post a lot of cool stuff on Instagram. "I'd love more people to see that." So if you're listening, go check out his Instagram.

If you like to be inspired by awesome photos of travels, give him a follow. And if you wanna hear some crazy stories, when we had him on last time, we talked about his book about the wild pirate craziness of the history of the Pitcairn Islands. Go back and listen to our episode.

We not only talked about traveling, like a local and not just a tourist and some crazy other things about travel, but we talked about some of the crazy stories from that. It's an awesome book. Definitely check that out too. Brandon, thank you for staying on for so long and being here today.

- It was my pleasure. That was so much fun. - Wow, I have never been so excited for a trip that I'm not even planning yet than I am right now for taking my next trip to Japan. And by the way, I've been there four times and I'm still so excited.

So I have no idea when we're gonna get to do it because I think we're still a little bit overwhelmed about traveling with two kids after going to Europe. But I am really, really excited. I hope you liked this episode. I hope if you haven't been considering a trip to Japan, you are now.

And if you're already considering it, I hope you're sold and you're ready to go. And I know I said that I wanna make sure these episodes include a section about how to get there with points and miles, how to book flights, where to get the best deals, where to stay in hotels and where the best deals for points are there, as well as any other deals and hacks I've learned or collected.

So I'm gonna release a bonus episode on Friday that'll cover all of those things. And I really hope you enjoy it, but also please let me know what you think of these travel episodes in general, because I know it's a little bit different from what I've done in the past 100 episodes.

And I know that not everyone is looking to travel to Japan. So I am curious what you think, would love feedback. And I've got a couple of these planned, but I am really trying to decide whether I make this a monthly thing and also whether we try to tackle a country or just really go deep on a city.

So I've got another one I've recorded with Lee Rowan on everything about Italy. But after that, I really wanna try to decide what's best. So please let me know what you think. Please send feedback and thank you so much for joining. See you Friday. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music)