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You heard about it here. Again, that's longangle.com. Hello everyone. And welcome to All The Hacks, a show about upgrading your life, money, and travel all while spending less and saving more. I'm Chris Hutchins. And it is so great to have you here for a really exciting episode. If you've never been a fan of basketball, you might not recognize our guests, but I can assure you it's a conversation you won't want to miss.

And if you are a fan, then I'm sure you'll recognize NBA legend Manu Ginobili. Though by the end of this episode, you might refer to him as minivan driving, savvy investing, credit card points obsessive NBA legend, Manu Ginobili. Manu grew up playing basketball in Argentina and started his professional career in 1995 playing in the EuroLeague.

In '99, the San Antonio Spurs picked Manu with the second to last pick in the entire NBA draft, but he wasn't offered a spot on the team right away. So he kept playing in the EuroLeague, leading his team to win the 2001 championship. Finally, the next year he joined the Spurs roster and played his entire 16-year NBA career with the team, where they made the playoffs all 16 years, won an NBA championship four times, and Manu was named a two-time NBA all-star.

If that wasn't enough, he led team Argentina to an Olympic gold in 2002, which was, and still is, the only time Team USA has lost gold since 1988. In fact, he is only one of two players in basketball history to win the EuroLeague, an Olympic gold medal, and an NBA championship.

He retired in 2018 at 40 years old after playing professional basketball for 23 years. If that seems long, it's because the average NBA career is only four and a half years. In fact, only 30 people in history have ever played into their 40s. In our conversation, we'll discuss how Manu pushed his mind and body to play on one of the world's biggest stages longer than everyone else.

This includes talking about training, fitness, diet, mindfulness practices, and more. But that's not all we'll be talking about. There's another side of Manu that few people know about, and it's a big part of why I asked him to join me on all the hacks. While there are so many professional athletes out there buying fancy cars and watches with big stacks of cash, Manu was pulling up to the AT&T center in his minivan and always making sure he used the right one of his five credit cards to rack up the most points he could.

This is going to be a fantastic conversation, so let's jump in. Manu, thanks for being here. Pleasure to be here, man. Yeah, so I'm just going to kick it off. I read a New York Times article this morning, and it's from 2017. And it said that you're two times more likely than the rest of the population to do the career your parents did.

And I know you grew up around basketball and you played when you were young. What was that like? And how much do you think that pushed you into the sport? Or do you think it was more internal desire? Well, my father was a big fan of the sport, was actually the president of Boys and Girls Club in my local city.

And I spent a lot and I mean, a lot of time shooting hoops and playing with whoever was at the gym. I just got very lucky that my genetic code propitiated my basketball abilities and that I had a strong desire to do well. I really loved it from minute one.

And the combination of things sparked my career. And do you think your younger self ever would have imagined the career you had? Not in a million years, I could visualize early that playing in Argentina at a high level, maybe with the national team, then later with maybe in Europe.

But having had a career like this, winning multiple NBA championships and playing for 16 years in the NBA, that was impossible to forecast because there was not one Argentinian in history that played in the NBA when I was a kid. So for us, it was unreachable, was something impossible.

And Michael Jordan was an alien that came from somewhere else to play hoops. No, it was not part of the equation at all. And has that changed now? Have you have you changed the kind of aspirations of Argentinian basketball players now? Well, after so many years now, I think we are 15 players from Argentina that ended up playing in the NBA, some for a few games, some others for for many.

So the NBA became that this world league, more than an American league, became more of a goal, something more reachable than what it was for me. They've done a great job recruiting and drafting talent all over the world. So basically every, every single country have one participant in the NBA in the last 10 years.

So it's, it changed a lot. Yeah, and your career didn't start in the NBA. So I know you kind of had an atypical NBA career. I think you were maybe 25 when you finally got to the NBA. And like you said, first player from Argentina. How did that path of being an outsider coming in late play into your role and how it changed over time?

First of all, I wasn't ready at all at 20. I was a late bloomer. So at 18, I was not even close. At 20, I wasn't ready either. And I needed the, the extra work and the extra time in Europe to, to develop my game, to, to grow physically, mentally.

So even the day I got drafted at 22, I had zero expectations of being drafted. And I think the Spurs either, they got me at number 57 and I didn't even know the draft was held that day. So I was a late bloomer. I had different types of expectations for my career.

And, but, but it just slowly happened. And some goals, I reached some goals and then put the next one and then the next one, and all of a sudden I, all of a sudden I felt, I found myself at 25 playing for the, for the Spurs. So the benefit of all that was that I saw basically everything.

I was a backup in Argentina as a small league. Then I was playing in second division in Italy. Then I moved to a very good team in Italy and I was supposed to be a six man there. And the following year was more of a, the go-to guy in the championship team.

So I went through every stage to the NBA and made me, I think, value way more where I was at every stage. So I, from, from day one here in the NBA, I never took anything for granted. It was just a long way. It took me to get here and I was going to use it as well as I could.

Yeah. A lot of the people I know, whether they're in sports or entrepreneurs, they find that they have this skill and they're successful early on in the career. And they're sometimes difficult to be coached. You know, they think they have everything. It seems like you appreciated the value of coaching and learning early on in your career.

Is that true? How did that evolve and how are your relationships with coaches? I had very good relationships with every coach I had. I'm not sure where that, where that comes from. I wasn't, I've never been a rebellious type of guy. I never challenged the authority or I just follow the rules and try to accommodate my skills to what I was being asked and try to bend those rules slowly.

The way, the way it happened with, with Bob, with, with the Spurs, but trying to, within the system, try to use my skills the best way I could. But I both, well, actually everywhere I played in Italy, national team, NBA, or, or in Argentina, I still have good relationship with my coach.

And do you think the, the value of coaching applied equally throughout your career when you were just getting started, but you're kind of towards the end? How did, how did that change over time? In the last 16 years, I had only one coach basically with the Spurs and he helped me grew as a man, as a player.

So I had the utmost respect for him, both on the court and off the court. In, in the national team, we had only three coaches in the 20 years I played there basically. So that time allows you to, to create a bond, a connection and a way of communicating that goes beyond only words and, but times are great times.

So you know exactly who you got next to you. So I know I'm, I'm part of a 1% or even less of players that, you know, had one coach for the career or so many. So it's a few amount of different type of personalities. It's just only a handful.

So I've been very lucky in that regard. And I, we had a great relationship with, with all of them. Yeah. I mean, you said very few people have that. What do you think led to you being with the same team the whole time when I'm sure you had teammates coming and going the entire experience?

Well, I think that I fit, I fit in this organization and I was very lucky to have RC and Bob that really liked me, really love having me around and what I gave the team both on and off the court, because it depended on them, not only on me, then on my side, I, I just was happy here.

So I was not willing to go look for something else somewhere because I didn't care about markets. I didn't care about being on, having more time on TV or something like that. I was fine. And we were winning and we had a great environment and we had a great family structure here in San Antonio.

So for most of my career, I didn't even consider going somewhere else. There were a couple of times that maybe I entertained it because I didn't know what was going to happen. But overall, I just been super lucky to, to have been part of this, this incredible organization. And for so many years, sharing teams with the same core group of guys, very, very unusual in, in the NBA and in today's NBA, even less.

It's amazing that you had such a, an incredible career for so long with one team, a common theme, talking to people that played with you over your whole career, hearing people say that nobody could figure you out. You were the toughest to defend their tapes of every game. And you played almost probably with playoffs and everything, a hundred games a year, how did you manage to keep that mystery alive and evolve your style in a way that people, even as you were retiring, couldn't figure you out?

Was that you? Was that coaches? Was that a combination? I had no idea, man. I kept hearing some, some of the comments of some all stars and some other great defenders that, and I thought I was pretty straightforward with my game. Even, even though I wanted to go left, if I couldn't go left, then I, well, I would make some sort of move to go back left.

And if not, I started to develop some counter moves, like a step back, going right, or some little tools, but, um, I never saw that. I never felt it. It's not that I'm just saying it because it sounds well or something, even the, this, the Euro step that, that now is a word that we all heard before it didn't exist, I didn't know I was doing anything unusual.

I was using the only tool I had to go by guys like that were 50 to 60 pounds heavier and taller, and you could jump more than me. So I couldn't go over them vertically. So I had to go sideways. And for me, for me, it was so natural and so automatic, but then I started to, you know, to hear people talk about that, how unique it was that I look like a squirrel.

Going between the cars and stuff like that. So again, where, where did it come from? No clue. I just play the only way I, I could to survive in this, in this harsh environment of super athletes. I mean, super athletes is, is unbelievable, right? You're on the main stage for a game played around the world.

And, and it's not just raw talent, right? I have to imagine that to do everything that a professional NBA player does. It's, it's more than that. It's also about grit and willpower and determination. I've heard you say that most players in any sport lose more than they win. How do you push yourself forward when, you know, you're operating in such an uncertain league in terms of what'll happen next season, in terms of whether you've won or lost, how do you, how did you get through that mentally and how did you push yourself through all the hard times?

Well, I wasn't good at that at the beginning. I didn't take losses accountably. I was very tough on myself. I was always being very competitive. And I always mentioned that it's not that I, I nourished or I tried to be competitive. I was competitive from, from day one. I competed even with my brothers for grades.

I competed with friends about who had the best, whatever, shot from half court or whatever, at anything I competed hard and that brings a lot of obsession sort of, because I didn't want to lose at anything. And I, I dragged that all my career. And I never, maybe until the last three, four years, I really never learned to lose properly.

I took it too hard and it was very strict on myself. And it's a, it's a skill that I had to, to develop, to, to think about it, to read about it, to talk about it. And then towards the end, when, when my performance was starting to decay in some way, in some way, I was not the same as before, I started to, to be nicer to, to myself, right, to, to allow more mistakes, to accept that the time was doing its thing and that I was not as fast as before, and I was not as effective and that everything was hurting longer than before.

And that's when I started to, to learn and enjoy other things too. But it took me a while. I was quite, quite obsessed for the biggest chunk of my career. Are there things that you think if you knew them earlier in your career, it would have made it easier to deal with losing?

For sure. I could have loved to be nicer to myself. As I, as I said before, it was sometimes too much and maybe that drove me to be better, to add other skills or to prepare for a game, both mentally and physically better, but maybe on the satisfaction or happiness level at the present time, I could have been much better.

So, you know, it's, it's a matter of priorities for sure. I would tell my, the younger me to be nicer, to relax a little bit, to accept that sometimes you're going to lose because there's so there's 30 teams and only one wins. So those were some of the things that I, I would have liked to accept early on.

Because I, I would say my last three years were wonderful mentally and even physically because I was 38, 39 and 40. And I'm basically, I had no, no injuries before I did. And I was mentally in a great spot that really helped me to, to thrive, even not having the first step as I used to or the explosiveness.

Yeah. I mean, you just brought up playing in your late thirties and even at 40. So I did some homework. It looks like about 30 people ever have played in the NBA in their forties. And right now I think there's one player over 37. So I guess the question is not a long one.

It's how, like, was it diet routine? Like what led you to do this thing that currently there's one person doing in the world? Again, as always, it's a big, big combination of things, right? I can't underestimate the value of luck. I never had a big Achilles tendon injury or ACL or NCL or whatever.

Something that could really affect my career. All my injuries or surgeries were minor scopes. You miss a month here and there, and then you're back. So, so that helped, of course. The other thing that I think I, I did well is to take care of my body, right? I was never, even when I was young, much of a excess type of guy, I didn't go out.

I didn't do drugs, alcohol. I had a pretty steady routine towards basketball, but then at 35, when I started to see more muscular problems, more strains and tears and things like that, I, I had to make a decision if I was going to just struggle to the end of my career, or if I was going to be in a good spot, even though, as I said before, I was not going to be that fast or recover that quick.

But I, at that time I started to adjust my sleeping patterns, eating patterns, my therapy, stretching and mobility, breathing, and a lot of little tools. So at 35, I hired my own physio that came and lived with me basically one month, one week a month, because he lived in Spain and he really took care of me.

The spurs also improved their, their staff and to compliment all that, Pap started to not play me on back-to-backs. So I was being very well taken care of by the organization. I had a good genetic, I guess, code to, to help me to recover quick and not have bad injuries.

And at the same time, I did my best to be very purposeful on every time I had the opportunity, every meal, every night, my schedule and all that. So again, multiple factors. And what did some of those things you were doing on your own for, for those of us who, who aren't going to fly someone from Spain in to live with us once a week, what kinds of changes did you make to sleep, to food or diet or exercise?

No, nothing too surprising. Things that you heard about a million times, cut down on sugars, white flour, all the stuff that you could see in a package that you don't know where it came from. I tried to avoid it. I made foods that your great grandfather would know what it is a hundred years ago.

Then sleeping and resting every opportunity I had, because before, even though I told you, I didn't go out, again, finished, arrived home at 11, 12, and I would watch a movie and hang out with my wife or do something and then didn't really give importance to sleep. And then I started to read about it and realize that, that, that was the time where your muscles, your head, your immune system and everything kind of regroup and your body recovers quicker if you sleep well and all that.

So sleep, well, food, I mentioned then sometimes with my physio, we came home after a game and we would work on relaxing some of the muscle groups that worked the most where it was tight. The day after we would go and do a mobility routine, stretching. So it was a lot of work, but it was definitely worth it.

Both the, the, the mental and physical investment. Yeah. Did you ever get into any kind of breathing mindfulness kind of training in that regard? Yes. And that also had a role. I think it was in 2015 when I was starting to consider the possibility of retiring because I was not in a great spot and meditation with a, with a teacher here in San Antonio really helped me to, to again, well, we talked before, be less demanding and less obsessed with the game and just value other things, the present moment and all that.

So in 2015, I started meditating and, and it had a huge impact on me that first year to, to enjoy a loss, to, to be present and valuing that at 38, I was still playing in the NBA in a place where I wanted to be in a city where I wanted to be with teammates that I wanted to be with.

And that changed the perspective of just the finish goal, right? If I win the last game, I want a championship meant satisfaction. If I didn't have, he felt like, well, frustration. Yeah. That, that made a big impact on me. How, how common were some of these techniques in the NBA at the time?

And were they things that you found valuable and shared with people on the team, at least within your locker room? No, it was, it was not very common back then. Now, now I think it is, it's something that is more talked about. I was kind of not saying hiding it, but I didn't really know.

I thought of I'm skeptical in every aspect of my life, usually, but all of a sudden I started reading one, two, three of the guys that I listened to a lot or read, and then I remember I got, actually pop gave me a waking up by, by Sam Harris.

And when I saw this guy that I admire, that I, that I know is a scientist and went through a lot of stuff and tested things and he was the way he put it out there, I said, no, I, this is for me too. So before I thought it was more of a, you know, woo thing.

And then I started to, to appreciate it and practice it. And I saw great benefit. Yeah. And I feel like it's in the recent past become a big thing. I met, I met someone a few weeks ago who was a mindfulness coach to some European football leagues on Byron Munich, the team.

He was surprised that that was not a thing anyone had really ever heard of when he went and talked to them. And so it's still early days, but it sounds like it had a huge impact on your last few years. And I think it's pretty valuable that people are starting to wake up to it.

And, and I think it works outside of professional sports. I find that I'm more productive on days that I get a good night's sleep and that I feel good about what I ate. And it sometimes seems counterintuitive. You're like, oh, if I, if I sleep less, I have more time to work.

And it's like, no, no. If you sleep more, your work is better. Definitely. I, I couldn't agree more. After the, after reading Matthew Walker's book about why we sleep, I think it's called also my perspective changed even more, I knew what was starting to be valuable, but when he put all the data, all the studies in it, it has nothing to do, well, it has to do with athletes, but it has to do also with programmers or lawyers or anybody that wants to be proactive and energetic and healthy and feeling good about themselves.

So the value of sleep is super, super important and many times underestimated still to this day. So I try to advocate for that too. Whenever I talk to younger generations or, or even companies, because I, for example, the CEO of any company, I don't want the CEO of any company to do all night, wake working.

I want them to be asleep and rested and creative for the day after and be in a good mood to treat their employees well. So no, it's not about only athletes. It's about anybody around. They got to eat well, they got to do exercise and they got to sleep.

Yeah. How, and so now you went from playing 82 games, practices, playoffs. I think every year you were at the Spurs. So now, now you're kind of retired. You got time on your hands. I know you're doing some work now with the Spurs, but how do you spend your time now?

Well, I, I do work out a lot. I still do. I play tennis. I do two things that I couldn't do before. I don't play basketball at all, zero basketball in the last three and a half years, but I ride the bike three times a week, play tennis twice, then I'm a father of three boys and that's a lot of work always, I start, I'm starting to get slowly into BC, the Spurs also hire me this year to do some consulting.

So I'm spending time with them. So I keep plenty busy, man. I, I love what I do. I love my flexibility of time. I like my peace of mind being present for my family and traveling with them. I couldn't be in a, in a better spot. It seems like with every business, you get to a certain size and the cracks start to emerge.

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Again, that's allthehacks.com/athleticgreens to take ownership over your health and pick up the ultimate daily nutritional insurance. Now you're not a, an NBA player and you're just, just a dad doing some side jobs and enjoying time with the family. You mentioned you're biking, you mentioned you're playing tennis. What advice to anyone listening here that's similarly in their late thirties, early forties, couple of kids trying to get in shape.

What have you learned about exercise and fitness, your career? Obviously you have a very gifted set of genetics, but what, what would people take home as, as ways to kind of really keep exercise and fitness in their routine? That you have to do it, that it doesn't only help your body, your muscles, your bones, but your head too, your, your head needs a healthy, active body.

So some people may not start because they think they can ride 30 miles or they can run for 10 K or, or swim a bunch of laps. But you start with a step and, and there's a million things nowadays you can do. There's, there are workouts online for anybody.

Now with a, with a band attached to a door, you can do a full workout. You can buy one kettlebell and do as many swings as you want. It's a matter of convincing yourself and ideally doing it with somebody else that can, you can challenge yourself and you can have some accountability.

But before you used to have a membership, you needed a membership to a, to a gym or you needed a bike or going somewhere or having a coach. Now you can do it with a band and it's, there are so many options and it's, it's going to affect your mood.

It's going to affect your health. So yeah, there are no excuses. You just got to convince yourself that you got to do it. Yeah. And do you ever have days where you wake up and you're like, I just don't want to do it, uh, today, I'm just not going to take that bike ride.

Or, or if you have that feeling, how do you end up on the bike? I tell you this story because I loved it. My first year and a half or two years, I was lifting too. Now I'm not lifting. I got to go back to it, but I, I was going two or three times a week to the, to the spurs to, to lift when the guys were gone, I was going in and having a, uh, doing my routine and I was enjoying it.

I was, I was fine. But this one day I get to the facility, I look at the weights, I say, you know what? I don't feel like it today. I turned around, I went back home and I felt like a million bucks. Nobody, nobody tells me to do it.

I just doing it because I want. And if I don't, I don't do it. And the same with the bike. The thing is that there are way more times that I want to do it, that I enjoy, you know, being outdoors and riding on the creeks with trees. And I just love also the, the, the feeling that you get once you're done.

And so it's, it is again, I'm in a very privileged situation and I do it because I love it. Yeah, that's great. I've got a Peloton. And so I started biking and I was one of those crazy people that had never actually biked outside really. I mean, obviously I've ridden a bicycle, but finally we got bikes and we got a seat for the, our daughter.

And I was like, wow, this is great. Now I'm like getting back into biking outside. It's fun. And, and I find that when your exercise is something fun to do with someone, I can't remember, I listened to a podcast and someone said they started exercising with their partner and I'd always thought of that, but my wife and I started running together.

And then we were like, oh, that's fun. Like the more you can make your exercise fun, I think the easier it is to get out and do it. And accountability is huge. Yeah, for sure. And people are coming with great ideas. They are, they are gamifying the, the exercise.

They're giving you tools. They're going, they're making, making it easy to do it. So there are a bunch of startups and ideas and machines and, and kettlebells and bands that can help multiple group muscles and cardio and all that. So it's, it's great. Yeah. You mentioned startups. I know you also mentioned you're, you're getting involved with VC.

What has it been like to transition from someone focused on one complete industry so much to, to dive deep into a totally different industry where I'm sure you probably now look up to investors and founders and say, oh, I got a lot to learn. And they all look up to you and say, oh my gosh, legendary basketball player.

What's it, what's it like entering a totally different industry in this part of your career? I always admired that industry. I, I love tech and I try to, to dig into new ideas, software, hardware, try to learn, try to stay current and, and informed, but now with a little more time and some people that I met, they, they got me closer to it.

And I, I find it fascinating. I'm so clueless about all this world that it is very exciting to go and listen to these people and how they came up with the idea, what they are trying to do, accomplish, how they set up the mission, how they recruit the team.

So I'm just at this point trying to be a fly in the wall, trying to learn, trying to figure it out and be next to very smart people that know what they're doing, that they have done it before. So I'm not in a rush to do anything. I don't, I don't, I'm not in it for, for the money.

I just like the thrill, the, the, the opportunities that these startups are giving us to make our lives better or the environment better. So I I'm there to, to learn because I was always, was curious about it. And at the same time, I also was able to build the capital and have the luxury to put just a little bit, little part of it and try to contribute and hopefully get a good return on the investment.

But it's been very exciting to, to be part of the one, some of those meetings. And they also, I also learned that they want to know my side of the story, how I was part of teams and organizations and the examples of leadership or going through tough times or resiliency and all that.

So I guess we are both learning. Yeah. I'm jealous of the stats you have, though. I was thinking about how there's a lot of commonalities between running a company, you're working on a team, you're all trying to compete with other companies. And then I was like, man, it must be both terrifying and wonderful to know that there are just stats that help you understand how you're doing and you can compare yourself against other people.

Now you're experiencing a world outside of stats. It's like, oh, how am I doing now? I have to rely on feedback and conversations and feel myself worth more than I can just say, oh, well, obviously I put up this many points last night. I did a good job. It is a completely different world.

That's why I'm going with very humble objectives, just to listen to stories, to, to to try to contribute to causes and things that I care about, that I'm interested in. So again, I take it as a completely learning experience and trying at the same time to contribute to causes that I care about or values that I care about.

So I'm putting my intention in those aspects. Yeah, and you mentioned earlier your father was in basketball. I mentioned the stats of that, making you more likely to be in there. Do you think basketball will play a big role in in your time going forward? I know you're working a little with the Spurs, but you haven't touched a basketball in three years.

The other day I grabbed it. I wanted to shoot 10 shots to see how it felt. I couldn't make one zero for 10 threes. And it was unbelievable muscle memories. Incredible. It's been three years and I dedicated basically 30 years of my life to shooting hooks and I couldn't make one.

So it's amazing. Amazing. But at the same time, I, with all my experiences, background, where I came from the languages that I played in many places in Italy, in Argentina, Olympics, World Cups and all that, you know, gave me some insider information that is still very valuable. And I wanted to share, I wanted to talk to the younger generations to tell them that the mistakes I made, the things that really worked for me, what I wish I knew earlier as we talked before.

So in some way, I'm trying to contribute to the organization in that aspect. The thing is that I'm still not ready to go full time. I, I don't want to lose my freedom to, to go to Argentina, for example, now in December and January that it's summer there. I don't want to lose the opportunity to go spring break with the kids in March because they have a week off their school.

So I'm starting to go back and be connected to the game. I'm still not that committed to be like all in. And I don't even know if it's ever going to happen. We'll see when my kids are older. But at this point, I, again, I'm loving where my position, my privilege.

We've talked a lot on the show about financial independence. And part of that is, is to buy the time and be able to spend time doing what you want, which you're clearly doing. What's been the greatest challenge you've had since leaving basketball? I really didn't have any challenges. I, I, I've been really enjoying it.

I thought I was going to be a little antsy to, to feel that adrenaline rush, the, the pressure and the responsibility. But I really don't. Actually, I went through it for a long time. I, I had to, to live with that pressure, with that responsibility. And, and I'm not seeking it.

I'm just, again, loving my peace of mind. So I do miss a little bit the, the locker room, the camaraderie, the dinners after the game where we just hang out and talk about stuff and, or preparing together for a, one of those games. But again, I, I'm having a great life.

I, I'm enjoying the time with my family and going ride the bike for 20, 30 miles in the outdoors. So I really didn't face the challenges that I was afraid I was going to live, but maybe also that I, it took me a while to, the last three years of my career, I was kind of preparing for this time.

So I did a lot of things to be sure that I was going to be in a good spot. And I have a great family. My wife is great, very patient with me too. So I, I really, I didn't face any challenges so far. Was there anything you did with your family and your relationship during what I can only imagine was a very busy season to keep that, that relationship strong with your family?

I know lots of people, whether you're starting a company or playing sports, it's hard. You're away a lot and you put a lot of weight on, on your spouse's shoulders. What, what let you get through that? It sounds like you're in a great spot right now after a lot of years.

A lot of years. And I'm telling you, she, she's been with me since my last year in Italy. So she went through all my career in the NBA and I don't know, I guess I got lucky with her that she was always very patient and all my craziness and that she took all the summers off.

Like the summers where I was supposed to spend time with, with her and my family, many times, I just went to play workups and Olympic games. And it was not an easy time for her, but I guess she understood it, how I felt and how important it was for me.

The kids were too little, so they didn't really know what was happening. But now we are in a place where we have that flexibility that she's more of the priority. So the priority on where she wants to go and what she wants to do. And I try to help her a lot with the kids and be present.

So she's, she's enjoying that part too. But I guess we were lucky to find each other. Yeah, I feel similarly, and I've gone through a lot of crazy startup stuff and, and finding someone to go through that with you. I assume that was helpful along the way when you're stressed out about losing and all these things.

Well, that was huge because as I told you, I was very tough on myself. So many times, especially earlier, I brought that frustration home too. And I, I didn't want to talk about the game and I was moody, but then slowly we started to, to figure it out each other saying, okay, she's not going to mention even the game that just finished.

And I'm going to leave that game that just finished in the locker room. And then after big losses or huge wins, we were going to just hang out, enjoy the kids or do things that I had no connection to my job. And we found a great chemistry there. So I was never, I never brought basketball at home for my wife, parents, friends, whenever somebody came to San Antonio to hang out with me and, you know, spend quality time.

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To get all of the URLs, codes, deals and discounts from our partners. You can go to allthehacks.com/deals. So please consider supporting those who support us. Yeah. What about with your kids? I know you grew up with a family of basketball players and you obviously grew up to be quite successful.

Are your kids learning to play basketball yet? They are. They are learning and they love it and they try to watch everything. So now I'm watching more. We play a little fantasy game with other families and they absolutely love it. And now I'm way more relaxed. Now I don't care about talking about basketball.

I mean, I'm happy to do. So when they do ask questions on what used to happen back then, how I was, you know, ex-players, then we do talk. But during my years of complete obsession, basketball was not mentioned at home. Wow. Yeah, I struggle with that because my wife and I work at the same company.

So talking about work at home is something that on one hand, we're fortunate that we've usually... I never want to come home and say, "Oh, guess what's happening at work?" Because she already knows. So I guess maybe that was my hack, was if you want to avoid talking about work at home, if you both work at the same place, you can kind of all be on the same page all the time.

But that's a good point. But no, in my case, everybody was... Nobody's in the locker room. Nobody knows what the coach said or what the instructions were. So when somebody was criticizing that somebody didn't pass it to who or that your defense was not good or they didn't know what was happening indoors, we did and we talked about it and we watched videos and we analyzed and we were...

Oh, it was too much. So whenever I got home, I needed to be able to not think that much. Yeah. Well, that's good that you could get on the same page. So while we've talked a lot about basketball in your career, that wasn't what brought us together. And I know we've connected through you listening to some podcasts that I was on with Kevin Rose, and we've shared some conversations about money and travel.

So I want to start off with something I found on Twitter that in 2011, you said this was the year you became a minivan dad and that you were proud of it. And since technically, I think this is a finance podcast, at least a little bit. Athletes so often go bankrupt, they spend lavishly.

You seem to have the smallest ego of any athlete I've heard talk. How did you end up down this different path where I can't imagine that the hottest car for an NBA athlete in 2011 was a minivan? Yeah, it wasn't. It really wasn't. I thought it was the best we could get for having twins.

We had twins. We had a bunch of stuff to put in there. We have a dog. And after doing some research, I mean, the van is the way to go. And it took me a while to convince my wife. My wife didn't want anything to do with it. And I said, I think you're going to love it.

And we are going to be so comfortable. And the kids were too little to leave them in school. So I did it. And we were very happy about it. We still are, actually. We still are. You know, we are 10 years later. We're still our minivan dads. She drives it more than me now.

But I remember one time we were playing. I don't remember where he was back then, but I was shooting free throws. And Tyson Chandler comes to me and says, so you have a minivan too? We are two in the NBA now. I say, no, we are three. I got a friend in Brooklyn that has one too.

So we were three players probably in the NBA driving minivans. So very small minority. Yeah. Not just minivans, but watches and all kinds of things to spend money on. Do you think it was growing up internationally? Or what do you think helped you not go down the path so many athletes go down when they make money and end up spending it all so quickly?

I never attached my self-esteem to a possession. So that would be how to summarize it. The car I drove or the clothes I wore or jewelry never meant anything for me. So yeah, I never felt like I had to show that I was doing good. That what I did was showing it.

That I was playing for the team I wanted to play. We were winning championships. I let that do the talking. So I never felt like I had to show where I was. I guess the ego was part of it too. I never had a strong one and I never wanted to or cared about living lavishly.

Of course, I have a great house. I played in the NBA for many years. That helped me make a lot of money and I could live well. But I never felt like I needed to dress flashy or drive half a million dollar car. So it was not my thing.

Is there a thing in life that you love that you're willing to upgrade and enjoy outside of the stuff that you just kind of live in a more standard way? Well, I like living in a very nice house. So if I have to splurge, I'll do it on that.

I like to travel. So when we travel, we don't go to the most economic places. I mean, we choose the place where we're going to go and we go there. And we believe that those moments with the family or having a great trip and traveling business, it is a priority because it enhances how much we enjoy the experience.

And we do it. But then again, I don't need to drive my kids to school in a car that costs $300,000 or $500,000. For me, it doesn't add anything to my way of living. I mean, you say that travel is the place that you'll spend on. But I also happen to know from our conversations that you dabble a little bit in the game of credit card points and miles.

So how did you get into that? We all have credit cards. And then I started to get those that you can add more points and then use it for traveling and business. So I guess I listened to somebody talking about it. And I knew I had a million points with my credit card.

And I was not using it. So all of a sudden, I searched for ways to travel and or upgrade tickets. And I get to this website. I think it is the points guy or something like that. And I started to dig in and get it going in the rabbit hole and reading.

I said, oh, my God, look at this. This is a word that I had no idea about. So I started to get curious and get different cards for different points. So currently, I have millions of points that I'm not really using it. I used them last year. For example, we are five and we traveled to Argentina.

We flew in business and I used them with miles. And it was learning from you, Chris. A great deal. I got a good deal. But overall, I don't use them. So I'm good at crewing. I'm not used. I'm not good using them yet. So working on that. But again, wherever we decide to go next summer, it's not going to depend on where I get the best deal, where we want to go.

We'll see with my wife and we'll decide, OK, we want to do a safari in Africa or we want to do go to Costa Rica or Fiji, whatever, whatever we decide we're going to do. That's the priority. Then if I get the points, if I get the perks of the million points that I have, great.

We'll do it. If not, we'll just go there and use the points at a different time. But I, you know, since I am spending a lot of money in credit cards every year, I thought, OK, let's accumulate these points if they are there to grab. And I tried to optimize my spending.

And yeah, true. I learned a lot from you, Chris. And how many cards are you using now? Five. Are you proud of me? I was going to go for three. So five. No, I got five. One business one, Amex, Visa, another Amex. And the fifth one is, I know I just got it from my wife, another one.

So my wife, my wife is pissed at you. She doesn't like you because I kept telling her, well, you go to the supermarket, use this one. And she used the other one and gets yelled at. But it's just a way of optimizing and trying to accumulate more points. But we are not crazy about it.

Yeah. The way it all changes is you go on some really, really expensive trip. Let's say you decide we're flying on Emirates. We have our suites on the plane. And then you're drinking Dom and you're like, hey, this was 100% free. Zero dollars. That moment is when the switch flipped.

I heard those stories and I'm ready to test them. The thing is that we are just not going that far nowadays. We're going to Argentina. We don't have those flights. And we are going to mainly near here. The kids are still kind of young. So but soon, soon we are going to start following your advice.

Where are places you want to go that are on your list for when maybe the world opens up? The immediate one is Safari in Africa. We do want to take the kids. My wife wanted to go there for four years. And that's something that is in the immediate bucket list.

Then Italy, Spain. There are two places that we spent some time in. We actually lived in Italy for four years. We want to go back. We believe that the kids need to be a little older. They get more bored in there. There's not too much to do. But soon we'll go back because I miss it.

And I haven't been back in Italy in 15 years. So those are the two immediate ones. Then, of course, Australia and New Zealand are coming soon. The problem is that the time of the weather, December and January, we want to be in Argentina. It's when we enjoy the summer with our friends and family.

So eventually, Australia and New Zealand are coming. Yeah. Yeah. I also remember, I think it's tough to get from South America to Africa and to Australia and New Zealand. I don't know if there are flights now, but there used to be. The only way to get from Argentina to Africa was to go up to Europe or the US.

Well, yes. Whenever we go to Africa, it's going to be from here. But I took a flight that I don't think they do it anymore. Or maybe Air New Zealand does it. But it goes under. So from Argentina to Auckland, there's a direct flight, 17-hour flight, that goes through the Southern Pole.

It's pretty cool. I've done it, actually, with the Argentinians in 1997 to play a U21 World Cup. And we were fired up to do that. And a couple of years ago, New Zealand was starting to do it. Now, with all this, probably they're not. But no, probably not 100%.

They're not. So most of the trips are starting from Texas. Okay. And what kind of travel are you? I heard somewhere on the internet that you have a no-room-service rule. But what's your style of travel when you get to a new place? No, the no-room-service was when I was playing.

Most of my teammates just got to a city and stayed inside from the minute they got there to the minute they left. They went just to a place and I couldn't take that. I'm not American. I didn't know any of the cities. I got drafted and I didn't know what San Antonio was.

Where was it? What Texas was? I had no clue. So by the time I got here, I said, "No, I want to see these cities. I want to walk the city. I want to see what they are about." And of course, I had to combine that with the performance part that I wanted to do good.

So whenever there was an opportunity, I went out and I walked and I visited places and I ate at restaurants. Most of the times, whenever an Argentinian gets to the league, they call me for like, "Where can I go in Milwaukee?" So I'll go to my list and text them.

Anything on your list that are just standouts across the country that people should check out? Well, a lot of people are not excited when they go to Oklahoma City, for example. But probably my favorite steakhouse is in Oklahoma City. So... Which one? And it's called Red. And you go there and you order the skirt steak with truffle risotto.

It's like I had to do. So it's something that I did. I've done the last 10 years that I went to. Okay, see, I went to that restaurant and I ate that dish because it's outstanding. And we did it with my crew, right? We had teammates that we were going and we all enjoyed that dish.

But I had little things in almost every city. There are some cities that you play... The cities on the East, you go only one time a year. And many times it's in a back-to-back or it's in January. And in Toronto, it's minus 20 degrees. So you don't get to do much.

But the other cities that I played playoffs or that I've been so many times, then you start to learn places to go. Yeah. What about Argentina? You probably know it better than most. If anyone's listening, heading to Argentina, any must-do's? Many, many must-do's. The only problem with us is that we are a big country too.

And people think that they'll go to Argentina and get it done in a couple of days. And it's big. So you got in the Northeast, the amazing Iguazu waterfalls. Something incredible that everybody should witness. But bring a change of clothes. So my experience in Iguazu was I was completely head-to-toe drenched.

Not a single dry spot. Yes, I agree. Very humid. It's the jungle. But it's worth witnessing. In the South, we got the glaciers that are just outstanding too. Perito Moreno Glacier. And it's a wonderful national park. I love it too. I gotta go back actually. Then on the Southeast, you got whale watching that is so top-notch.

That is amazing in Puerto Madryn. Also penguins. And you can see the orcas actually getting out of the water to try to get a sea lion. It's the only place it happens in the world. I haven't witnessed it yet. The times I went, it didn't happen. You gotta be lucky.

But you see the orcas many times. Wine country. Buenos Aires is amazing. Swamps. I could be talking about Argentina all day. This is a wonderful country that everybody should spend some time going to. We need Manu's Argentina travel show. It could be your next YouTube adventure. That could be.

That could be. Good idea, Chris. Okay, I have one last travel question, which is I always have seen that teams are now all chartering flights. And sometimes you get a flight where every seat is a business class seat. Have you been on a flight where it wasn't all business?

And if so, how do you decide who on the team gets to sit up front and who sits in the back? Well, we are so spoiled. We got charters. So they actually have room for, I think, 14 players. And now there are more than 14 players in teams. So they send a couple to the back.

But they are planes that are especially conditioned for taller players. So they have a few that face each other for guys that want to play cards, write, type, or whatever they have facing each other. Then they have other ones that sleep the whole time. So yeah, those are not flights that you can choose, that you can accrue miles.

You just jump in and you go wherever they tell you to go. The coaches have their own stuff, too, where they watch the videos. They debate the next steps and plan ahead and analyze games after they happen. And in the way back, they have all the other stuff. So again, very, very spoiled for travel that the NBA players are.

Yeah. Any travel or life hacks to leave us with? Things you do unique in your routine that someone here might want to give a try in their life? Well, for money, I just listened to the episode with your boss. It's basically what I've been reading about the last few years.

And it's so well said that I'm not going to repeat it. Go back and listen to him. That's an episode with Andy Radcliffe about investing. When I got here, I never had any money, basically. I never invested. So I had no idea. And I was being overcharged. I was being sold funds owned by the same bank of the guy that proposed them.

And I was paying super high fees for many years. And then I started to read about how to optimize all that and choose or invest in index funds with low costs that will mimic S&P 500 and loss harvesting. So that was something I learned. And also the value of fiduciary duties when you have a financial advisor.

I had no idea it existed. Nobody told me. It was not mentioned. And for many of the guys that came from Europe, it's automatic. I think in Europe, either most or all have something like that. Somebody will correct them, correct me if I'm wrong. But when you come to the States, it's different.

And sometimes the broker will sell you the funds that benefit him, not you as an investor. And that's something I had no idea. So for many years, I kind of suffered between... Not really suffered, but I saw that happening until I figured it out. Reading a couple of the books and listening to guys like Andy.

The value of sleep is also something that I've been trying to figure out for years. The NBA doesn't propitiate good sleep patterns because of the time that the games are played, the traveling and all that. And I tried a bunch of gadgets. First, it was one that attached to the pillow.

Then it was a Fitbit. Then finally, I found a sweet spot with the Oura ring that I think gets the best. There you go. That's a bad finger to show. I know. I realized that as I held it up. But it gave me very good feedback. And I think every NBA player, athlete, or person, actually, should wear.

And full disclosure, after wearing it for a year, I decided to invest because I think it's a fantastic product. And I don't know. I think that's... I mean, that's a lot. That's about it. Yeah, I think the combination of... For a health hack, the combination of workout, sleep, and nutrition is unbeatable.

You'll be happy. You'll be active. You'll feel great about yourself. You'll lose weight. There is so much data out there that is amazing. Once you get in there and you start digging, you'll improve yourself a lot. Yeah, you mentioned books. I know you love podcasts. I know you love books.

Anything you're reading or listening to lately that you've enjoyed? Ryan Holiday is my advisor in everything. It's books. And he has recommended me amazing stuff. Great stories, very nurturing and learning a lot from his books or the ones that he's recommended me. Here I got 304 that I read twice, that I also gave away.

Thinking Fast and Slow. I don't know, from Danny Kahneman. Awesome book. Sapiens, also incredible. Waking Up from Sam Harris. And I don't have it there, but the one from Jared Diamond. Guns, Germs, and Steel, I think it is. Fascinating book, also about a similar topic to Sapiens. Yeah, awesome.

I have not read that one, so I'll add it to the list. Very, very good. Highly recommended. And money-wise, I liked Unshakeable from Tony Robbins. And now I thought it was not only because of what he said. It's the people he interviewed and the people that talk in that book is the one where I understood about the fiduciary duties and how to invest more consciously.

Yeah, it's kind of the Wild West still in America when it comes to what a person is allowed to sell you. I think it's crazy. They can sell life insurance and pretend it's something else. And yeah, it's wild. So if you talk to anyone, ask if they're a fiduciary.

I was a victim for a few years. So yeah, anytime I have the opportunity, I do tell the guys. And I'm very happy that tools like Wealthfront are coming out, because on low fees, and adapts to what you want to do, and they harvest losses. And I think it's a great product.

Yeah, thank you. All right, any last things to share or any place people should be finding you online? No, I'm very easy to find with this type of last name. I'm very easy to find. So I post here and there on Twitter and Instagram, not that much. And they can find me at the sports games too.

Oh, yeah, I'll have to make it out there. I was just in Austin, but San Antonio, I'll have to find you at a game. Come join us, Chris. You'll be welcomed. We got a lot to talk about. I need to learn more about how to use these points that I have.

Yeah, we'll have to do a session. We'll just figure out. You say, "Here's where I'm going." And we'll figure out how to make it work. There you go. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me, Chris. Thank you so much for listening. That was such a fun conversation.

Though, I hope I get a chance one day to smooth things over with Manu's wife. If you are new to the show and enjoyed this episode, please go ahead and subscribe in your podcast app and also check out some of the amazing episodes we've done the past few months.

If you want to go above and beyond that, you can share your favorite episode with someone you think might enjoy it or leave us a 5-star rating and review. All of these things help so much, and I'm really appreciative of your support. Hopefully, you all saw that I finally got the All The Hacks newsletter restarted last week, and I hope you enjoyed it.

If you missed it, you can sign up and read last week's issue at allthehacks.com/email. If you have any thoughts, feedback, questions for me, guest suggestions, or you just want to say hi, you can find me at chris@allthehacks.com. I read every message you send. Finally, thank you so much to BlockFi for sponsoring this episode.

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