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Again, that's longangle.com. Hello, and welcome to another episode of All The Hacks, a show about upgrading your life, money, and travel. I'm your host, Chris Hutchins, and each week I sit down with the world's best experts to learn the strategies, tactics, and frameworks that shape their success. Before we get started this week, I want to give a big shout out to Chris Van Vliet, host of the fantastic podcast Insight, who introduced me to our guest today, Brant Penvitic.

Brant is an award-winning film director and veteran television producer with decades of experience working on shows like MasterChef and The Biggest Loser. He's also a C-level sales and presentation coach and keynote speaker. But I learned about Brant from his bestselling book, The Three Minute Rule, Say Less to Get More from Any Pitch or Presentation, which teaches anyone how to use Hollywood's storytelling techniques in business to persuade and succeed.

Today, we're going to talk about why it's critical to dial in your pitch in the first three minutes, maybe even the first 10 seconds, including how to do it. Why in those three minutes, you need to answer four questions so people won't tune you out, and of course, what those questions are and how to answer them succinctly.

I'm going to ask him what he thinks of my pitch for All The Hacks and how to improve it, and I want to hear about his travel adventures. Last year, his family sold their home and took a 48 state RV trip. I want to know what he learned and whether he'd do it again.

And I'm sure there'll be more. So let's get started. Brant, welcome to the show. Hey, what's up, man? Happy to be here. So let's just jump right into this three minute rule. Dive in. You've said it's really a way to teach people how to use the Hollywood storytelling techniques to say less and get more.

How did you get so good at pitching shows and persuading people? And how did that lead to this three minute rule? And listen, I'm a Hollywood producer by trade. When I was early to the business, I was running around pitching shows and trying to make my way. And I was at the lobby of CBS.

I remember when this happened, I was in the lobby of CBS and getting ready to go in for my pitch meeting. And as I was there, I walked from the pitch room, Simon Cowell. And I was like, Oh, hey, Simon. And we were chatting a little bit and I was thinking to myself, Oh man, I hate pitching after that guy who's not excited to hear his pitch, which is great.

And so as we're chatting, I can see him looking over my shoulder. And when that happens, I look over and it's Mark Burnett. And so Mark Burnett is coming in right after me. And I'm thinking like, so now I'm wedged between these two superstars, right? And I got such anxiety.

I am such a newbie and no one cares. And I'm going into the pitch, the president of the network. What am I going to say? What sort of fun thing, small talk crap am I going to go through that makes this make any sense that the president is going to want to hear?

Like he's not going to care. So I just got into this panic. And as I was in the room and we'd said, hi, and everybody sat down, I was like, I got to get out of this room. I got to just tell them what the show is. I got to get the hell out of here.

Like they don't want to hear from me. So I literally just said, here's the show. Here's how we would produce it. Here's why we think it's good for you. Here's what we think it's going to cost. And I'm out of here. And I was in and out of that minute in nine minutes.

And my agent was like, Oh my God, that was the best pitch we've ever done. And CBS bought the show. And so I started doing that more often where I was just like, okay, so what if I don't tell Fox about how product placement in this show is going to work?

Because they do that for a living and they kind of have an entire department. Like they don't need to hear from me. And I remember being an NBC and the guy who ran it was a very good producer on my side of the field and went over to run the network.

And so I remember pitching shows and being like, why am I getting in all this crap with him? He's a better producer than I am. Once I gave him the basic idea, he's going to figure this stuff out. So I got this reputation very quickly about having some of the best pitches in Hollywood.

And the irony was, it was like, I wasn't really doing anything. Like I was doing less. I was saying less. I wasn't trying as hard. I happened to be conveying more confidence. I was able to get the buyers to offer more of their suggestion. Everything just started going my way.

And so we started to develop this system that it was like what we use in the edit bay of a three minute scene. Like you can't have a scene go more than three minutes. You have to resolve all the conflict, blah, blah, blah. There's a lot of science behind three minutes itself about how the human brain processes information and makes decisions.

And so I just realized I'm using this three minute rule across everything. And when I started to apply that across other businesses besides television, it worked even better than it did in television. So that's how it all started. You also mentioned that there's like the three minute version and the 10 second version.

And some people make even quicker judgments. How do you think about the span of that three minutes? Well, and then people ask me a long time, "What do I say first?" and all that. That's a big thing for people. The three minute rule basically says that everything about your business product or service must be conveyed clearly, concisely, and accurately in three minutes or less.

The key is you need to get your audience to buy into the general concept before they make the yes or no decision. Everybody listening to this right now has had someone come pitch or present them or want to get them to do something. And in the first 10 seconds, you're already thinking, "I don't think I like this.

I don't know. I'm sure I want this." Right? And that's because the person has not let you grow into that decision. You have been forced to make that instantly by big statements. And there's a whole bunch of things that I talk about in the book on how you get people to be almost defensive, almost make a decision and then defend it.

As opposed to get all the information and then make a decision. And so the three minute rule, if you do it really well, you could extend someone's yes or no in their mind to about a maximum of three minutes if you do it really well. But you don't need three minutes, a minute and a half, sometimes two minutes, whatever is required.

It is about what needs to be said, not what you want to be said. So there's a book, people can read it. I enjoyed it. I would highly recommend it. But what's the high level of how you lay out those three minutes? So it's called the WAC method, W-H-A-C.

And that's basically the structure for any pitch or presentation, how you can convey the information. Anytime you want to convey something to someone or convince them to do something or try to get them to your way of thinking, think of it in the WAC method. W-H-A-C. The W is...

What is this? Literally. What is it? H is how does it work? Those are the first two questions anybody has on anything that's going on. If you've ever had somebody droning on about something and you're like, could you just tell me what this is and like how it works?

Like that's all your brain wants. It needs to find that. It's called a three-step rationalization. First, we conceptualize. We have to understand what it is. Then we contextualize. We got to put context to us, how it works for us. And then we actualize, which is like, okay, how do I get it?

So what is it is literally tell me what it is. I am a, I'm a personal trainer that trains Hollywood actors for major action films. Okay. That is one sentence. And everybody listening now has a pretty good idea what my buddy Jeff does. You actually kind of know it right away.

Okay. That's what is it? Then it's how does it work? Okay. Well, how does he do that? I move in to the celebrity's home and live with them for 90 days. So they never break program, never break diet. Okay. That is two sentences. Now, do I really need to go into all that much?

Or have you already made an idea of how this works? Right? Your brain is saying, I get what he does. I get his method. Now you're either interested, not interested, whatever, but you're there. Right. Yeah. I have a fundamental house. There you go. You're like, that's kind of cool.

Okay. The next is the a, are you sure? It's sort of like, wait, can you validate that? I don't care about your facts and your figures until I understand what it is. You do. People want to start with their history and their stats and all the size of the market and all this other crap that no one cares about until I have context and structure.

That's it. So when you talk about, are you sure I'm using it as a second phase, which is I have given you the basic of what I do and how it works. And now I'm going to explain to you the value of it. I'm going to give you some context, how it works for you.

I trained Chris Hemsworth. I trained the rock. I trained Mark Wahlberg. Now you're like, okay, so you're pretty good at your gig. Or I know those aesthetics. I understand that. Or I've done this for 15 years. That's the, are you sure about it? I trained Hollywood actors for big action films.

I moved into their house nine days. They never met. They never left. I've trained some of the biggest actors in Hollywood, including, right. Three sentences. And now you're like, okay, I get it. And then the final piece is, can you do it? Which is effectively, what do I have to do to make this happen?

How much is it going to cost? Do you have a patent? When is it available? How's the supply? How do you get paid? Like all those things, all the things about the actualization of the element. Come later, right after all this stuff is done. Now I care about that.

And the irony is it's the smallest piece. The smallest piece is like, how much does it cost? Is it available now? If I buy into everything else, I will find a way to make the, can you do it work? If you have this great idea and all these things work, but at the end of it, you're like, but I've never done before.

I'm not even sure how to do it. Okay, well, let's figure that out. Right. Jeff says, can you do it? Is I only work with major studios. They pay me directly per film. My booking right now is nine months in advance. Okay. So now you're like, oh my God, I totally get it.

Right. That's basically his pitch. Now, from that point, the conversation opens up, everything starts opening up. When did you get started? How often does it work? What do we do for food? Who pays for that? Where do you live? I don't have a place. There's a million questions at a million conversations to have from that pitch.

You just can't put all of that in the pitch. You have to trust the fact that if you get people to those first basic structures and get them through that, they're going to want to know more. If you can't get someone to be interested in those basic structures, you have no hope of getting them interested just by talking more and giving them more information.

It doesn't work like that. It has the opposite effect. The more you talk, the less confident you appear, the less value you convey. That is the end of the story. And so after you've conveyed all that, whether it's a minute and a half, three minutes, is it silence? Just let people ask questions or your example, you went nine minutes.

Yeah. It's like there's two versions, right? One is you have somebody that's like an interactive person. And that's usually where it's like questions kind of thing. Right. So you're a minute and a half in and you've got the basic points and then you can like start talking about elements.

Like they understand asking questions, have them go through stuff. That's easy. A lot of times you're making a presentation to multiple people and you can't just be like, okay, I'll take questions from the field. So what I normally do is have a transition that feels like you would say, I'm going to answer some of the questions.

I'm sure you probably have, because what you're doing then is let's get into the engagement. Let's get into the details, the nitty gritty, the stuff that you're going to find interesting and all those kinds of things that helps people get that transition between now we're engaging. And now I'm informing the first step is to inform and lead.

And then the next stage two is engage and follow. Those two are very separate pieces. And it's the one thing I find most people get mixed up is that they try to start an engagement conversation before anybody really understands what it is they're working with. When you work with people or help people, for example, is how long does it take to get that three minutes?

It seems like if it's the most important thing, you should be spending the bulk of your planning on honing that first bit. It's taken me 20 years to learn how to say things in three minutes. Right. It's difficult and it's more difficult depending on how big your personality is.

Ironically, like I train a lot of companies and some of my best students are the biotech scientist type guys with the most complex of companies and drug therapies and whatnot. And oil and gas guys are good too, because they don't want to perform. They don't want to overcome the audience with their cool awesomeness.

They just want to tell people what's going on. They're excited about their product. They're excited about their company. I can strip all that down for them and be like, just tell these things and you'll get to say all this other stuff about the gene therapy and the, you'll get there.

Just say these things so people understand. And then they'll want to talk and they love that. But it takes me a full day. I'll give you a perfect example. When I wrote the book, the publisher was like, Hey, don't write the forward to the book until you're done the entire book.

Cause then you'll know all the details and you can like really nail that. Right. Cause that's how people decide they're going to read a book. So I did a little research. Turns out people in a business book read usually the first four to six pages before they make a decision.

Then the average business book has a forward of 11 pages. And I was like, four pages is about three minutes to read. No surprise. So I was like, Oh my God, this is genius. I'm going to start the book saying that the average business book is 11 pages. The average person takes four pages.

That takes three minutes. So I got three minutes to make you want to basically read the rest of the book. I was like, yeah, this is going to be great. Three minute push for my book. So I went on vacation cause I had finished the book. I'm in Jamaica, my wife.

And I was like, gate, I'm going to take the first day or so. I'm going to write this intro and send it off to publisher. Then I'm going to take the rest two weeks and stay on the beach and have a good time. First pass of writing my Ford or for the book, 14 pages long.

Right. And it was good. I was like, Oh my God. So I cut it down and I spent the next day just trying to edit it. And it's 10 pages long, nine pages, eight pages. I got to seven pages and then I start negotiating with myself. Well, this is so good.

It's written so well. I really need people to hear this right away. I can't wait till later. Maybe this is the time when it's this good and this important that the three minute thing isn't as important. I was like, what the hell's wrong with me? So I even called the publisher and I asked him, it was like four pages.

Like, is that just any size page? Or is it words? He's like, no, it's words. That's how it works. So I'm looking at the word count. I'm like, Oh my God, I couldn't finish it in two weeks. Couldn't do it. Couldn't get it done on the trip. I had to come back home.

I had to go to my office. I had to take out my sticky notes and do my entire whack method from the very beginning for my own book, an expert who does this for a living. And I had to take the whole thing and finally got it to my four pages.

It's just because I became so precious about the information. And in fact, I don't tell a lot of people this, but there are drafts of the book that they send around to some press and stuff like that before they print the final version. There are a few draft copies that have, I'm going to say three quarters of a page from my original intro that I pushed into the first chapter because I was so in love with it.

And it wasn't until after it all said none, I read it again. I was like, Oh my God, this is total drivel. Like this is crap. And I forced my publisher to take it out and redo it. I still think there's one or two sentences I probably could have cut, but when you're precious about your information and when you're really passionate, it's very difficult to chop the bodies away and kill the dead weight.

And so for me with clients, it's very, very different because I can tell you right away what's dead weight. I can tell you right away what to put off to the side and wait. So the book really trains you to try to find those pieces. It isn't, Hey, where this certain color tie and your pitch will be better.

No, here's the way to find out what you should be saying first, what you should be in second. What should you be saying last and what you shouldn't be saying at all. So I want to go two places, but I'll ask one quick question. You said this isn't the color tie.

Does it even matter what you wear to a pitch? No, no, none of that matters. It doesn't matter what you say. None of that crap matters anymore. People are so inundated with information and details and all this crap. They're just not interested in all those other things. None of that works.

We used to train salespeople to use their person's name. Hi, Dave. Hi, John. Hey, John. How are you, John? Have you thought about this, John? Like use your client's name over and over again. Could you imagine if someone did that to you today? That's the reality of a hypersensitive audience.

Unless you're doing something that's a detriment, none of that stuff impacts you whatsoever. Everybody wants to sift through that and get to the good stuff. And then the second I'm going to go in, I sent you this in advance. So I'm going to ask you about my show. I'm constantly talking to everyone from sponsors or shows for me to go on and try to explain what we do.

And I'm super passionate. So if you're great because it's not your show, it knocking down the bodies, to try to narrow it down. I'm curious what you thought of what I sent. This was the description of all the hacks. I'll give you that in two pieces. Your description of the show, your intro of the show, what the show is, is really good.

Super solid because you're doing it for the consumer. And there's not a lot to get into what a podcast is and what it contains. And you were pretty clear about like, Hey, I give you all the great travel hacks, save money. I got more fun stuff. Like it's nice and clean.

Could it be a little bit less wordy? Sure. Would it make any difference? Most likely not. Like it's relatively simple. You keep it relatively simple. I will say that your outreach email to get people like me and Chris and other people on is way too pretty and conveys a sense of not desperation's too much, but conveys a sense of less value than you want to convey.

Right. Because you're pitching here's the size of the audience, which is impressive. Here's this stuff. If Joe Rogan wanted me on the podcast, do you think he'd put a paragraph in there about his show and how big it is and where it is? Right? No. He'd be like, you want to be on my show?

And by the way, he doesn't want me on a show. I've asked him. He said, no, that's the highest level, right? That's the top of the food chain. The lowest end is a podcast you've never heard of. That's like just starting. And they are going to inundate you with facts and figures and information and pretty pleased.

And these are the people I worked with. And like, let me prove myself to you with words. Okay. And so you're about a third too long in that. Okay. Because these people are peers, your show kicks ass. And that outreach from you should be less. It's Hey, I got a podcast.

I think you're cool. I've heard you on other stuff. I'd like you to be a guest. Let's connect. When you're a new brand and people probably don't know you, Joe Rogan, people know him, right? So he sends a message. Everyone knows him. You want to come across like you're not desperate, but you also need some validation.

Is it just limit the validation? Yes. It's limit the validation. Because if you, if it comes across as you pitching or selling, you're dead. It's over. So what would you rather have someone who's kind of curious? Cause you didn't give them everything to figure out or someone who's just like this guy, you know, women, money, people, they move away from things that chase it.

And so if you sell, if you're pushing, if you're trying to convince, if you're trying to influence people are repulsed by that, they are repelled to go the other direction. Now sometimes what you have is so much value that you overcome that, but that is not where you want to be.

And if you're saying, Hey, I want you to be on my podcast. There's only a couple of things that make sense to talk to somebody about what does your podcast focus on? Is it a podcast about gyms? Is it a podcast about airline flights? Is it oil exploration? Like you got to explain that, Hey, I do this podcast.

It's called this, it does this, right? If you have some credibility on the size and the scope and the people you've had is reasonable, but unfortunately, everybody's going to say that, right? Everybody's going to say it's the number one podcast in this category, right? Or it's got 90,000 unique views or something, something, something, right?

So that you just got to keep to a minimum and that's what you do. If you were the number one podcast in the world, but no one knew you, I guess you'd say it's the number one podcast in the world. Not like it's the number one podcast rule, according to these things on this date by this measure.

And you can verify it here. Here's the link to see whether I'm the number one. And like I've attached the certificate of my number one authenticity. You wouldn't do that. And the irony, if you did, I'd be like, Hmm, this probably isn't real. Right. And the more things you included to explain and validate it, the less I believe it.

That's the irony of it. It's like, the more you prove it, the less I want to accept it. Even if it's like, Oh, okay. So your thing is you have great guests, present company excluded. You have good numbers. It's a great show with a great unique hook. If you're reaching out for people to be as a guest, that's all you really need to say from your perspective.

Right. Or the other way is like, imagine if you wanted to get my 16 year old son as a guest, you'd be like, Hey, man, I got a podcast. It does this. Want to be a guest. Okay. So there's the two extremes, right? My son's nobody. He would die to be on anybody's podcast.

Joe Rogan is the greatest podcast. Everybody wants to be on it. Those two things in those two situations, you pitch them exactly the same, very few words, almost understanding that you're going to want it. And if you want to get more details like when, how, why, all that kind of stuff.

Great. And that's normally what you'll end up getting shorter. That is sort of that outreach. The more responses you'll get asking for things. Do I need to do this? When I do that, how do you do this? So what reached you have, you know, one thing that this just made me think about in a previous life, I was a founder of a tech company that raised money.

Right. And I found that one of the most effective things was to give everyone a really easy out. So I know you have a different thought on closing that a lot, but I would be trying to raise money. And I'd send an email follow up two days later and say, Hey, just want to follow up and see if you need any more info.

If not, no worries. Catch you next time. Give them this easy out because a lot of people struggle with the no. And then you have the anxiety of them. Oh, are they going to say yes? What do they say? If you just make it so easy for someone to say no, they just give you the answer faster.

Yeah. And that's part of it, right? Like you just want to make it clear. If what you were offering had real value, you wouldn't desperately need them. And if they didn't see the value, you wouldn't be like, I need to convert your no, I need to overcome the pushback.

It's like, what? It's like, no, you got other people to go deal with people who will see the value. That person doesn't see the value. Like a buh-bye. That has to be what you convey in the words. I wish I could say that I'm eating a fully balanced diet every day.

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Yeah. I always been cringy about that kind of stuff. Cause a lot of people want to wrap up their pitch with like a fancy phrase or a saying. Think about when you watch shark tank and it's like, Hey sharks, who wants to dive in here with me and swim?

Whatever. You're like, Oh, it's like, Oh yeah, you're pitching this. Oh yeah. You've rehearsed this. Oh yeah. This is your stick. You basically took them out of that moment of, I'm listening to your story to be like, Oh, sorry. We're pausing it for commercial break. Effectively. It lets the room down.

I've never found a closing that makes people stand up and clap other than that's it. Thanks. Kind of thing. And that's my idea. Welcome to this, whatever that last piece is, which is like, I'm done. I've explained it to you. We're talking or I'm leaving. That's the vibe. If they have more they need from you, they will ask.

And that is a classic Hollywood ending. There was a guy who ran CBS and he's famous for the most deadpan looks, no emotion. You didn't know what was going to happen. You left that room. You weren't sure if he loved it, hate it. It didn't matter. That was he trained.

And the irony was the people who worked after him, that he worked for him. They learned how to do that too. And if it didn't go well, if the pitch didn't go well, again, would simply say, great. I got it. Thanks. And that was it. Nothing else. So you're like, okay.

And then if you'd ask a question, how are you going to deal with this in the third act? You'd be like, Oh shit. Like he's got, he's interested. And then you would engage. And that's the vibe that is hard to let people capture on their own. You've got to find out what your audience thinks.

You can't push them. You got to give them the basics. Then you'll know, is this something in your wheelhouse or not? And the amount of people that you can convert from an objection and the amount of work takes and the amount of lasting sort of good that's created, that is so small in today's world.

It's not worth it. So instead of objection handling, which I know they teach in sales, it's just move on. It's better to go try again than to try to overcome every objection. It's not even close. It's not even close. An objection is somebody that basically has said, I don't buy into this.

Now it's different if they don't understand it. And a lot of times what I'm dealing with is I'm dealing with companies who are trying to get through objections by giving the audience the information they should have given them in the beginning. And so they're trying to handle objections and they're actually using the information they should have used in the beginning as like, Oh no, no, no, that's not what it means.

Or, Oh no, we can do this twice for you. Or whatever it is. Whereas when we retrain and go through it again, it's like, Hey, here's all the objections laid out. And if you're talking about objections like, Hey, I need to talk to my wife cause I'm not sure we can afford it.

And your job is to close them. A, that's not my world. I don't work with that kind of piece. That's not what I do. And I've been approached by a lot of companies that have that type of sales stuff. And I worked with a very large company on their timeshare business.

I just couldn't get them to really make the big enough changes because they're just a slow moving thing. And their goal is to get people in an emotional state and trick them into signing. Yeah, that's not what I do. The timeshare is good for certain group, a certain demographic.

This actually works really well for. So why don't we just tell people how it works really, really well. And if they fit into the demographic, they'll let you know. And they're just like, what? That's not how we, that's not how we do things. We force them into it. We make them feel guilty.

Like every trick in the book. It's not my world. I've gone to the timeshare pitches mostly out of curiosity to see how they do it. I have yet to ever say yes. But one thing that I've tried in the past, I'm curious if you've seen this or used it when it comes to objections.

I knew when I was raising money for my last company, I knew that if someone wanted a lot of information about customer acquisition, like we just hadn't done it. And I knew that it was like the most common objection. And I would just start the pitch. I would walk in a bag.

After I explained what the company did, I would say, Hey, I just want to pause. We don't have customer acquisition data yet. We have not gone through that part of the business. If that is something you guys need to see, we can just stop right now. We don't need to keep going.

Right. And a part of that was I wanted them to get over it because they've already blocked off 30 minutes. They want to see the rest. It's not necessarily going to work, but at least makes them less focused on this thing that they might say no to. It's genius.

It's owning the negative. And that's a big piece of storytelling is people get sucked into the idea that what's negative about their pitch or what the downside is. I just start every development meeting when we're talking about television shows. Why is a network going to pass on this show?

Tell me why. What is the reason? It doesn't fit with the brand. It's too hard to produce. We can't cast it properly. I don't think people are going to like it. It's not going to be relatable. Okay. If I can't get past that in this room, the network's never going to get and like never going to get past that.

If you pretend you don't know what the negative side is, there's not a lot of good options. One is your audience never brings it up. And so they just think that you either too dumb or you're hiding it from them. Number two is they bring it up right there.

And now you've got to scramble and answer it. So if you end up not mentioning it and they bring it up, you can answer it except for they've been thinking about it. The entire time that's what they've been doing. They've been talking about it. And that is a disaster.

You cannot have them doing that. And so the last option is you bring it up because it's not going to be, they didn't figure it out. They didn't understand what could be wrong here. That's never going to happen. So the negative is important. How big it is and how much importance it has is all directly proportionate to where you put it in the pitch.

And by you talking about it right in front, saying, Hey, we don't customer acquisition data. So if that's an important thing, like, just know we don't do that. We haven't done that yet. It's like, okay, that's done. When we end up having storytelling in Hollywood, you don't get in a moment where it's like the Shawshank Redemption, uh, Andy Dufresne looks, you know, you get beaten up, but he looks like he's going to die.

And you're not like, Oh, what a wimp. I hate him. It's over. He's a loser. Right. Rocky gets knocked down. You're like, Oh, that's it. This movie sucks. He's a bum. All is lost is the setup for here's what's great. That is the best part of it, right? When you talk about not having customer acquisition, and then you explain everything, your audience is then going to be like, Ooh, like, I wonder how this customer acquisition could work.

And they'll start overlaying their own excitement to get to the result they want. The negative can never hurt you. Never hurt you in a pitch. So you mentioned a lot of storytelling in that response, but I noticed that when you gave your example of your buddy, Jeff, there wasn't really any storytelling.

Is it that storytelling maybe doesn't need to be part of the first three minutes with the whack part? No, it's that people look at storytelling as once upon a time, I was here and that's not what storytelling is. That's wordsmith. That is wordplay. Storytelling is here's the situation. Here's what's happening.

Here's what's going to happen next. Here's why. Scripts are storytelling because they fill themselves with words and they flow to the points. The points are the elements of a story that lead you to the next piece. How many people are listening that have a favorite movie and they watch it and they know what happens and they still like it.

It's not because it's so cleverly written. You follow the story beat by beat by beat. And that's what makes it interesting. And that's what makes it fun. And that's what leads you. So when I talk about storytelling, I'm not telling people how to tell the story of how they came to be in this piece and why this is going to work for someone.

I see a lot of that. It's a terrible idea because nobody wants your story to be wordsmith for them. They want to get to the point. If I'm there to be entertained. Okay. Wordsmith. Make it fun. But if I want something from you or you want something for me, can we just get to the point?

Here's what it is. I want to know how it works. Then once you understand, you want to know could that be real? Would that actually do what you think it is? Oh yeah. Okay. How do I get that? That's what a story builds. That's how storytelling in Hollywood works.

You inform people and lead them to the conclusion. That's all Hollywood storytelling is, is leading people to the conclusion you want. The boat sinks in Titanic. You watch the film, Andy Dufresne. You want him to escape from the prison at Shawshank. You want it to happen. We don't start that movie by saying, Andy Dufresne escapes from a very bad prison.

Let me tell you why he does that. That's not how you tell a story. Tell a story and be like, here's where he's at in this story. Here's what he did. Here's why he's in the prison. Here are the conditions. Here's his choices. It looks like he's not going to make it.

Then you're like, please escape. Right? That's how a story is told. Is there an example of that kind of storytelling with a pitch for a product or a service? Well, yes. The way that I use that in a classic storytelling with wordsmithing sort of idea is in what's called the intro with my reason for being.

That's the only time where that makes sense, where you want to explain to people the reason why they are there. You are there. We are here. How did this come to be? I started developing that technique when we were doing pilots and presentations for the networks. And sometimes you'd send it in and they would take this DVD, put it in the DVD player.

They'd watch your pilot and then they decide if they're going to buy it or not. I just couldn't live with that because there was things I wanted them to know about it and things that happened along the way. So I became very, very good at warming the room and creating the anticipation.

And if I knew something might be an issue, I would be calling the head of the network. I'm saying, Hey, by the way, I feel like our second act is really shallow here because I didn't have this scene. I wanted to film it. So I feel like that second act drags a lot.

Right. And they're like, okay, so now they're anticipating. So it can drag and it doesn't kill it. I would say like, Hey, I would have added this longer because I love this scene so much, but I know that your delivery, we need nine minutes of this act. There is so much here that blank, blank, blank.

I set that room tone. So when they put the DVD in, they know exactly what to think, exactly how to feel exactly what went into this, and they can judge it on its merits. Your pitch is kind of the same. How did you get here? How is your reason for being about why this product or service is interesting?

How does that translate to why you're sitting there? And I'll give you a great example. One of my favorites from one of my favorite companies I've ever worked with is a electric vehicle controller manufacturer called XROW Technologies. And they had come to me, the chairman had come to me a while ago and said, Hey, will you come on board?

We really need some help. And I looked at the company. I was like, nah, too small Canadian, small, micro cab company, not my world. I really liked this guy, but not going to happen. He called me back three months later and he said, Hey, listen, we just hired a new CEO taking over.

She's moving to Calgary to head office to start this up. She would really use some help. And I think you guys would hit it off. And I was like, nah. And he said, she's the CEO of GE small industrial motors and she's leaving that gig. And I could not get my brain around why she would do that.

And so when I talked to her on the phone, I said, I'd talk to her and I asked her, I said, why would you take this job? Why would you leave one of the highest profile jobs in that business and move your entire family to Calgary, Alberta for this micro cap, infinitesimally small company?

Why would you do that? And she said, Oh, well, do you know anything about electric motors? And I said, well, like, no, not really. And she goes, well, I do. And I've been looking for this technology since I was 12 years old, winding electric motors in my family's electric motor shop.

I know what this technology can do. I could not resist. So when she would pitch that story, that was the reason for me. Now you don't know anything about that company, but I guarantee everybody listening now wants to know what that technology is. I've set up that. And so when she pitches, so she would say, I was CEO of GE small industrial motors.

I got a call from this company. I ignored them for many time until I finally said one phrase that changed my life. I said, show me the technology. And they did. And 30 days later, I attended my resignation at GE and moved my entire family to Calgary, Alberta to take over as the CEO of Xtro Technologies.

And now you're like, okay, then that's the start of the pitch. That's the story that leads you to be like, so let me tell you a little bit about Xtro. We are a technology company that makes controllers for electric vehicles. We use coil switching the dynamic way to be the brains behind the way electric vehicle performs with our coil switching technology.

You can go farther and go faster on the same charge. And you're like, what? And then it's like, let me tell you the details of the technology. And then she gets into it. The power of that story in the beginning to set up that thing is very hard to ignore.

That's how you lead somebody to that piece. It's not always like that. Sometimes you got to send a deck. Sometimes people don't want to hear your little small talk in the beginning. They just want you to play it. But that's where classic, let me tell you a story fits in is it should be the story of how you got there or why this counts.

And is that the first part of every pitch? Almost every pitch has that because 90 times out of a hundred, you're going to have a conversation to begin to pitch. Sometimes you're just sending a deck or an email. You're not going to be able to do that, but it becomes a, how did you get there?

Why is this interesting? What compelled you to be there? Like the one I wrote in the book, this woman show jumped with her horse. She had an axle problem on the way to the event. She on the side of the road, the horses were freaking out and it was nine 30 at night.

Where do you put your horse? She's like, Oh my God. And yet you could see in the area, there's gotta be houses everywhere that have barns and stables, but no way to access them. I don't know what to know. And then he's closed. She realized that's when she came up with bed and bale, which is Airbnb, but for horses.

Now, do you need a lot more? Like if you were an investor, now your questions are not like, Oh, what is this thing? How does this app work? Or what's the driving force? It's like, okay, where are you? Like, do you build the app? Like now you're engaged already.

Cause you get it. Understanding is the fundamental importance for being engaged. People who don't understand something can't engage with you. But if it's Airbnb for horses, people travel with horses, they need a place to put them. There's houses all over America with barns. Unused. Yeah, I get it. But I want to know this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, right.

Yeah. And that's really the key. Getting the crew together. Isn't as easy as it used to be. I get it. Life comes at you fast, but trust me, your friends are probably desperate for a good hang. So kick 2024 off right by finally hosting that event. Just make sure you do it the easy way and let our sponsor drizzly, the go-to app for drink delivery, take care of the supplies.

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So whatever the occasion download the drizzly app or go to drizzly.com. That's D R I Z L Y.com today must be 21 plus not available in all locations. I just want to thank you quick for listening to and supporting the show. Your support is what keeps this show going to get all of the URLs, codes, deals, and discounts from our partners.

You can go to all the hacks.com/deals. So please consider supporting those who support us. One thing you mentioned is, okay, so maybe if you have to send a deck, the intro isn't part of it. There are a lot of times where I've met people who are like, well, if someone tells me to send a deck, I try to force them into having the conversation in person.

Do you think you should, as a business or a person selling anything, kind of hone all the mediums or try to... Unfortunately, yeah, because it's just like, you try to push somebody to do an in-person meeting. If you can get that to happen, great. But if your deck or your written material can't stand on their own, you're buggered because if you think that person that you're pitching, it makes the ultimate decision and isn't going to share it with someone else.

It doesn't have to do that. That's never going to work. What's happening is we live in a sort of decision by committee world. They have to rationalize why they liked it to somebody. And that means they're going to have to share your deck with them and they're going to have to summarize your pitch.

But if I told you and I sent you the deck for bed and bail, and I told you to go explain it to somebody, you'd say Airbnb for horses. It's because I already gave you that. And so now the summary, it lives on its own. And the deck kind of reinforces that.

In her opening of that deck, it's occasionally there'll be something of a story that led her there. But all I really needed from that story to get across to people is that there's nowhere for people who travel with horses to put them other than a professional kennel. And those places close.

It's not like a hotel where they're open for reservations all the time. It's stables. Those people go home. So that's really all I needed to convey. That's the setup, right? Is it the problem? Sometimes it's the problem that you answer. I find people get too detailed into that, but really the part of the deck that makes the most impact is what is it?

That's it. That's what it is. Airbnb for horses. The phrasing around that makes people go first page, second page. Now they're, like, okay, I'm going to read this. Cause I want to find things out. Not I'm reading it. It's four pages. I don't really understand how many people listening have done that, where they get a deck and they're looking through and they're like reading it.

And they're like, I don't really get it. And so their first question is I don't really understand how this works. I don't really understand how that works. And you're like, oh no, that was like page four. And the thing that happens to people all the time, or you're pitching it.

And someone says to you, they ask a question. You're like, oh yeah, I'm getting to that in just a second here. That's a pretty good sign. You've got your information in the wrong order because people are already having thoughts. Are there other signs or ways to evaluate how you're doing with whatever kind of pitch you have, whether it's for business or something at work?

It's hard because the engagement doesn't give you what you need. People pretend to be interested. They pretend to be disinterested. It's really about what they engage with next. Do they ask questions? Are the questions about what you're doing and the concept, then you've got a problem. If the questions are like, what are you doing next?

How do you solve this problem? Where does this go? How do we deal with this? Is there a way this happens? And there are those kinds of questions. They understand the concept. And if you can't get that square, then you will see people's reaction. It'll mostly be in the questions they ask, kind of tell you how you're doing.

How do you feel about rehearsing? Should people be practicing this a lot and with who? I do think you should practice a lot with anybody. The key is you should be able to say it to anybody at any time. You should have those 4 sentences pretty locked down. And what you'll find is then you can start to color them and add to them and make them better.

And you can gauge the people that you're talking to. If my buddy Jeff is talking about his personal training business, and he's talking to another personal trainer, he would pitch what he does a little differently, but he already has the language in his repertoire. He might start with, yeah.

Oh, I'm personally, I do this. I do that. Like his basics are already there. The framework structure is already there. It's good to rehearse, but have you ever heard somebody that you know, they're reading or, you know, they've memorized it, it just detracts. Cause then you're like, Oh, right.

This is rehearsed. And it sucks the passion out of it. And it just makes it look like you're trying too hard. And that's just like in a romantic relationship, like somebody is trying too hard. It's just not interested. My guidance has always been rehearsed as much as you need so that you don't need notes.

That's part one. But then part two is and get really comfortable with the fact that there's going to be multiple things you forget and it's okay. Yeah. Because if you rehearse it all and then you forget something, you get caught up and you're like, Oh, there was one, a fourth point and let me go back and look.

And I think it's better if you just roll with the three and forget the fourth point. And if it's important, it'll probably come back later because you don't want to be searching for notes in the middle of the conversation. Yeah. You talked about slides. When people are giving presentations, you want the slides to live on their own because you mentioned they might get shared around, but you also don't want them to be distracting when you're talking.

Do you tell people to create two different presentations? Yes. A hundred percent. Okay. Yeah. Almost always. I mean, think about it. You're giving a presentation with slides. What do you actually want them to do? The person, do you want them to read the slide, the words on there and read the information?

Then what are you doing there? But then they're reading it. And if you don't want them to read it, then why have it? Unless it's just a picture, you're describing it. So there are your two things. You want them to read it or you don't. If you don't want them to read it, then it better be something that accentuates what you're saying.

Bullet points, pictures, simple messages, like that simple. If you're put up something enough that they have to read, there's no point in having it there. Because if you're talking, they're not going to know what are they trying to split time on reading it, doing jumping ahead. It's just, it's a disaster.

People want to put slides so it looks like they've done a lot of work. It's like, okay, by the way, I'm not even against that. Sometimes, sometimes there's graphs and charts that look good. So you put it on a slide and when you're presenting in person, but you're not speaking to the numbers on there.

You're saying, we did extensive research and I will send you this in detail. So you can read what this slide says, but here's the summary, as opposed to here's the market research response. As you could see here, it's like your slides should accentuate what you're saying, not trying to do the work for you.

One other thing that I'll share just in case anyone's making a presentation, you could tell me if you don't like this idea, but every time I went and gave a pitch for my company, I took notes after the fact of all the questions I was getting asked. And then I took every question and I said, okay, this question is either going to be a question that I think everyone needs the answer to.

It needs to be part of the pitch. Or it's a question that some people might have, but not everyone. So it's not as part of the pitch, but I'm going to create a slide for the question. And it was basically, I don't know if this was like a psychological trick, but I found that someone would ask a question at the end and I would jump to a slide to answer it the first time I wouldn't.

And then I'd go home, I'd make the slide. And the next time I would jump to it. And for some reason when it was written on the slide, as if I thought about it in advance, people were like, Oh, you can answer this. I'm not worried anymore. But if I off the cuff answer it, I'm just like, Oh, this is what we're going to do.

People were a little more apprehensive. Exactly. It's like what I used to say when I was pitching TV, it's all in the casting. I was like, no, it's in the concept. If I have to tell you that we'll figure it out in casting, it means I really don't know how to make it work.

And I'll just get good cast that'll fix it. And that's the same thing where you asked me a question that's even tough. And I just answer it. There's a chance that I may not believe you, that I think you just will say anything to make the pitch good. Any final tips for people obviously not pitching Hollywood and that kind of thing that you left off?

It's anything. It is literally a guide for conversation in life. Keep it simple. Probably the best exercise that seemed to work the best for people is I have them do my Twitter exercise. You had to tweet what your product or service was and that's it. And not the new extended Twitter length, but the original 144 characters, what would you put, what would you say?

And if you can't get it there because you think everything is so valuable and so complicated, you need to work harder. It means that you're actually in more need of it. And it's just happened to me. I have a very big client. I'm very excited about their company. I've come on as an advisor.

I'm really involved. It is a very in-depth company. There are layers on layers and we are talking about it and I couldn't get a log line for them because there was just so many things. Oh, but we don't talk about the financing. Then we don't do that. When we finally got it, it was like, Oh wow.

It was more important than we thought because at the beginning, you're like, Oh, we got so many good things. Let's just get people in a little bit. And then they'll see all the good things. And you're like, no, go to the Twitter thing. And can you make it that simple?

Sometimes with clients I'll be like, okay, here's seven words. Tell me your idea in seven words. That's it. Which seven do you choose? Platform, used for hailing, whatever. You have to put it in such a small thing. You're like, okay, if I do that TV shows, we used to do it all the time.

It's the amazing race for the smartest people in the world. I don't really know the show, but you could get a basic idea. It's like, okay. Then you add, all right, here's 10 more words. Go ahead. What would you choose? And then you're adding. And that's probably the best exercise, which is could you actually explain it in 144 characters if you really had to?

So people don't necessarily want to buy it, but they don't understand what it is you sell. That's basically trying to convey the four points of the whack weather or just the first. If you only have 144 characters or 15 or 25 words, just the first, it is the most important.

What is it is the most important. How does it work is the second. Those take up 50% of everything that you need. All right. And everything else people will get to. They can't get to those two things on their own. It's the only two things they can't get to on their own.

They need you to inform them. Everything else, they can start to put together themselves. They can have an idea, they can develop it, but until they understand what it is and how it works, you got nothing. If they can come to their own conclusions for the second half of your pitch, at least at those steps, how much of your pitch is planned in advance versus free form based on the questions people are asking and where it's going.

I still have pretty good structure just because they come to the conclusion. They may miss things because they're focused in one area, which is fine. You want all the details laid out the rest. After the three minutes, you can have very loose, very loose because they're already interested. They want to engage.

They are looking for confirmation of their predetermined bias already. That's what they're looking for now. Oh, I like that idea. But do you have a patent? Do you do this? That's what you want. You want them to be like, Ooh, this could be good. But is that a good valuation?

But how far are you from revenue? You want that. You don't get that you are fighting uphill. I feel like I have a lot of notes. I'm going to work on my pitch that I send out to other guests like you, all kinds of people. I want to take a quick turn.

So we talk a lot about travel on this show and hack it up, hack it up last year. You sold your house. You bought a fancy RV. You went around the country, hit all 48 contiguous States in six months with your wife and your two kids. Before I hear more, would you do that again?

I would be on the road right now if it wasn't for my youngest, wanting to go back to real school. So I loved it. I loved every second of it. I mean, I'm, I'm in a semi-retirement mode anyways. I didn't know America was, I didn't know it was that good.

That was the one takeaway from seeing all 48 States interacted with people every single day. It was part of the documentary that I was making about. It was like, we got to go meet people. We got to go see people. We was called dinner with America. We went and just random people we met and just heard their stories.

And it's just shocked at how great this country is. The people, I know it feels like we're tearing each other apart and there's such divide, except it's not really like that. It really isn't. It's like that in the media. It's like that on your social media feed. It's like that in a few cities at certain times and it's a protest, but for the most part, the things that humans and Americans have in common so outweigh the things we don't that in the real world, people are just doing their thing.

They're trying to have fun. They're trying to take care of their family. They're trying to make a better life. People are really, really great. And so I absolutely loved it. And I went from a relatively good size house here in Los Angeles to a trailer for six months. That was smaller than my bathroom.

So it took some getting used to, but I loved it. Any places you went that were kind of unusual and you're like, I didn't think that this would be a place I'd love. Yeah. Oh yeah. I'd say big surprises for us were Alabama region, like Alabama, Tennessee, that area, Oklahoma, Arkansas.

It was just amazing. We had such a great time. People were amazing. Love the scenery, that kind of stuff. That was a surprise. And the other sort of big one for me was like Niagara falls. Like Niagara falls was really fun. And like a great, great day. That was a surprise because I expected to be very touristy and, and it was, it just didn't matter because it was awesome.

But I found that Southern hospitality and that kind of vibe, South Carolina and all that was just like, it was so heartwarming and the people were amazing. And we just fell in love. How did you meet all these people? I think everyone I know when they're traveling loves to have the story of, Oh, you met some locals in this place.

You said you did it every day, every single day. How did you make that happen? Every day we had a few things we had to try to, you know, what the place was famous for foods. We had to find the restaurant that sort of represented that best restaurant, the city kind of idea.

We had to find out what the cool adventure was whitewater rafting or downhill mountain biking or whatever a cool adventure was and what the great site would be. What do you have to go see? Do we got to go see the St. Louis arch like that kind of stuff, you know?

So we did a lot of the touristy things that you have to see if you've never been to St. Louis, you kind of got to see the arch, that kind of stuff. You're going to rock and roll hall of fame. So we did all those, but then while we were out doing that, our goal was to find someone to interact with and be like, Hey, can we take you to dinner?

This is what we're doing. And it was all the time, every time, every place. It happened. That's just what we did. It was amazing. I'll give you a great example. My kids were pulling into Kentucky, big Kentucky horse park, RV place, huge place, big round. And you can park on the inside or you can park on the outside.

The outside has these amazing views of the vistas. We felt we were driving around. We found the one, you pick whatever one you want. This is beautiful backed right onto a park, basically a park. We could drop our door out the back of the deck. It would be amazing.

But on the inside was about six RVs that were clustered together and everybody in their middle sort of like fire going, chatting. Right. And then we drove around and I said to the kids, all right, what should we do? We should take this spot. Super beautiful. We'll be able to back right on the park.

It'll be amazing. Or do you guys want to back into this group of people and just join in? And my kids were like 17 and 15. We're like, yeah, let's go with the people. And so we backed our RV into a site that sort of backed into them. We got everything all set up and we literally walked right over their campsite.

It was like, Hey, where are you guys from? That was it. We're playing volleyball with them all night. We're making dinner. Like that was it in Washington state. We're riding our electric bikes. And this guy had this recumbent bike or the one that you sit on and you pedal with your hands or whatever.

And he's flying. We get to the stoplight place waiting for the light to change. And I looked down and that's not a recumbent bike. He has got no legs, no legs. And I looked at him and I just made the joke. I was like, Oh man, you're making me look bad.

I'm on an electric bike here and you don't even have leg. Like this is, you make me look at we're laughing and the kids. And now what's your name? He's like, Louise. And I was like, what are you doing tonight? Louise? He's like, why do you ask? Hey, we do this thing.

You want to come to dinner? Come down to the campsite. We'll make dinner for you. He's like, okay. So he came down. So we spent the night with him and we met people from all four corners of the country. Every race, creed, religion. It was amazing. It was the greatest experience of my life.

Best thing my kids ever I've ever done for them. That's amazing. Had you traveled a lot with your kids before? We do a lot of adventures. Like I run an adventure club nonprofit for exactly. So I do a lot of adventure stuff. So the kids are not unused to doing weird kooky things like my daughter and I rappel down waterfalls, like silly things like that, but we're not campers.

We're not RV people. That's just not our world. So this was all sort of new in that sense. And we never been away for longer than a week or two ever. That's amazing. Are the lists of all the, we had to find the best place here and do this thing.

Is that published anywhere? I got all that. I got, I have all that. I haven't published it all yet. I'm in the middle of trying to finalize it all. Okay. Where we went, what we did, who we saw, like all that stuff. I have all that stuff, but it'll be somewhere.

Yeah. Yeah. It'll be killer. Awesome. Yeah. That's like a coffee table book. It's coming out hopefully for September. And it's basically it's called what I learned about America. That's amazing. Visiting all 48 States. We jumped quickly to something totally different. So first off, thanks for all of that. Of course.

I really enjoyed the conversation. I think people are going to want to hear all these tips because we normally end every episode asking people find a place. What do you suggest they eat? Do have a drink? Where do they go? I'll let you, I'll punt on 48 state answer for the book, but I'm curious if there's one place that whether it was on your trip or in LA, that you have some recommendations for people, maybe traveling there.

I don't know this summer. I think one of the best spots that I've still can't get over is still Whistler, British Columbia. It's one of my favorite spots in the world in the summer, winter, everything looks like, well, so all the places are great, but in the summer is a unique experience because it's like being in the middle of the wilderness, but with all the trappings of everything, which is just really, really cool.

So that's what I would say. If you've never been there, that'd be the place I would go. But if you're in LA and you want great sushi, that's a whole other thing. I will second your Whistler. I went on a bachelor party in Whistler and I will encourage anyone going there to try their mountain biking trails, which are out of this world.

I felt like I was biking through an Ewok village with these like elevated ramps. One person is so smooth and just nonstop. You're like, wow. One person did break their legs. So for him, it was not as smooth, but for the rest of us, we had a good time.

Thank you so much for being here. Where can people stay on top of everything you're doing and find out when this book's coming out? I'm easy to find on my socials at Brant Penvidic. You can go to three minute rule.com and see all that kind of stuff. My travel club, you can visit that reject average.com.

I'm pretty easy to find. I have a lot going on. I just don't have a lot going on. I don't sell anything. I don't have a course. I'm not trying to get people's money. I don't take on new clients right now. I'm just out doing my thing. I love helping people find the value in their message.

It's like one of those things. I've had fortune 500 CEOs in almost tears because of the thing they've been working on for years. They're finally able to explain it properly. And it's like the frustration of having something that you really believe in, that you love and you can't get people to understand it or believe in it is overwhelming.

And it's just, it's kind of great to be able to help people do that. So, well, I appreciate it. Absolutely, buddy. Thanks for being here. Right on, man. I really hope you enjoyed this episode. Thank you so much for listening. Reminder to vote for all the hacks and the people's choice podcast awards by July 31st at all the hacks.com/vote.

If you have any feedback on the show questions for me, or just want to say hi chris@allthehacks.com or DM me on Twitter or Instagram. And if you haven't subscribed to the show on Amazon music, they've been featuring all the hacks this week as a hidden gem podcast. So definitely check it out.

Okay. That's it for this week. See you next week. .