The pattern that I seem to be perpetually in is one of whatever I'm doing, unless I'm podcasting or reading a research paper, that my mind is constantly flitting to the other things that I think I should be doing. - Yeah, that's sad. - It's sad, and it's something I've been working on for a very long time.

And I'm able to hold my, for lack of a better word, attention on things to accomplish tasks in my life, and to be present with people, as it were. But I thought-- - No, no, no, let's go back a step, 'cause we both said it was sad. Why is it sad?

I'm reconsidering, you know, that to be able to think of five different things instead of one could be an asset. - Right, it could be an asset. I think that, for me, what I realize is most of the shoulds are just total lies. - Yeah. - They don't, and also they don't-- - Exactly, exactly.

- They're just lies. Like, they're not actually coming from a script. I'm not hearing other people's voices in my head. Yeah, you should do this. It's, you know, not parental narrative or anything. It's just contamination of a useless type. It's not like listening to the radio. I used to listen to the radio while I'd make dinner or something.

And it was so pleasant, right? You know, hear an evening discussion about the news or talk show or whatever on the radio while cooking. And so that kind of quote-unquote distraction felt really meaningful. I felt like when I lived alone that I had other people in the room with me.

This is different. This is, it feels as if it detracts from some essence of the behavior that I'm in, even if the behavior is just getting out of bed in the morning. - Wait, so let me be clear. You get out of bed or start to get out of bed and you have several thoughts.

- Yep. - And those thoughts bother you? Do they prevent you from getting out of bed? - No, but they feel intrusive. They don't feel welcome. Because I know what I'm gonna do each day. I have a policy for myself of doing one work thing each day, maybe in one or two blocks.

And I try and really put everything I have into those. It's kind of a recent evolution of not trying to do three things in a day. Maybe it's a function of getting older, but I get so much more satisfaction and get truly so much more done from just doing one thing in my work life each day.

- I don't even understand the one thing idea. You know, that people talk about multitasking, which is what you're saying. And you're better not to multitask, but you're always multitasking, right? I mean, I'm moving my hands while I'm talking to you and I'm sort of thinking and, you know, fixing my back at the same time.

There are always lots of things going on. And I think that also tasks, you know, so let's say you're a kid and you're doing your social studies homework. And then you're doing your math homework. And so, and you go back and forth. So are you multitasking? It depends. If you see yourself as multitasking, then you're drawing boundaries between your math and your social studies.

If you see yourself as doing homework, it's all part of the same thing. And so there's always a way that the tasks can be grouped as a single unit, or you can see anything as multitasking. When you see it as multitasking, you're suggesting to yourself that there's going to be some conflict.

There's some reason I'm leaving this to go to this. Well, maybe I'm running the script backwards. Let me put it differently. The level of satisfaction that I feel from having, say, worked on a chapter of my book for a couple of hours or even 45 minutes, or from going for a run without my phone and just enjoying the run, it still blows me away how much I enjoy things that would fall under the category of simple things or things that I experience in isolation, as compared to how little I enjoy and sometimes reflect on how punishing quote-unquote multitasking is, like being in a text conversation while I'm walking on the beach.

- No, no, but when you're texting while you're on the beach, probably it's some kind of work text, right? There's something about it, and why are you doing it when you're on the beach? It's not, because I can easily imagine, oh, I'm on the beach, it's wonderful. Let me text Andrew and say, Andrew, you're right, this time on the beach is wonderful.

And texting wouldn't take away from it. You know, my life is much simpler. To me, all you have are moments. That's it. And if you make the moment matter, then the moment matters. And you can't make it matter more. It matters or it doesn't matter. And so the question, you know, when you're lost doing or found, really, I don't want to say lost when we're writing.

I find myself while I'm writing. But when you're engaged in an activity, you know, you're making each of those moments matter, but, you know, they should matter as much. I had this thought that I would help people who were stressed and I would say to them, okay, so assuming that their vision is reasonable, just thread a needle.

Threading the needle. And then I'd ask them how they felt. And everybody's gonna feel fine because you're actively engaged and doing something. You're not engaged in what people call monkey brain or whatever, worrying about tomorrow, worrying about, you know, so on. So to go back to your three things, you know, it's like the text on the beach is not an I love you text 'cause I don't see why that would distract you.

I can imagine being anywhere, doing multiple things where I'm sharing what I'm doing, but I'm not seeing them, you know, oh, I have to do this work thing. And then the question is why see the work thing that way, and especially someone like you where you don't need any of this anymore anyway, you know?

Well, yeah, that's a discussion unto itself. No, no, no, but no, but it's important, you know, and so that if it's all fun, it doesn't matter. I was on this panel in Australia. Well, first, each of us gave a talk, some big shots, and then unbeknownst to us, they brought us all out.

And so we're sitting there and I'm the last one to be asked. And the question was, what's on your bucket list? And so the first person answers what's on the next person, and we get five. Now it's my turn. So I've had some time to think about this. And you know, my first thought, I don't have a bucket list.

But of course, you know that I'm gonna say, well, it's good not to have a bucket list or else I'd have a bucket list. So then I'm able to say why I don't have a bucket list. You know, if you imagine you're like a glass, you know, and the water is full or whatever, you know, vodka in this case, you know, that it's full, it's full, you can't do more than that.

And so if the moment is meaningful, you don't have to be writing that book, being in love, on a vacation in Paris, you know. And so I think we have all these crazy notions, even the idea of, and I've talked about this before, work life balance. Ooh, that's scary to me.

What that says, you know, what life really means is some, you know, joy, right? Other than just being, you know, doing work 24/7 or however long people work, not 24/7. What is it, three and a half hours? Anyway, that it suggests that we, the work that we're doing has to be aversive.

And because it's aversive, the only way to have a good life is to add this fun time. And I think that's sad. I think it's sad that people think life has to be stressful, that work has to be unpleasant, you know, that no matter what you're doing, I believe there's a way of doing it so that it's fun.

(upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music)