(upbeat music) - We're back one more time with historian and theologian Michael Reeves, talking about his incredibly good book, "Delighting in the Trinity." If you're looking for a good summer read, consider it. Dr. Reeves serves as the President and Professor of Theology at Union School of Theology in Oxford.

Last time we were talking about creation, so Dr. Reeves, go into the inner Trinitarian relationship and explain for us where the act of creation, this impulse, where does that originate within God? - Yeah, well, our triangle, the Father, for eternity, well, we looked at John 17, 24, where Jesus says, "Father, you loved me "before the foundation of the world." For eternity, the Father has enjoyed, delighted in his servant, that's Isaiah language.

He's enjoyed his son. And what's happening in creation is, as the Father is so delighted in the Son, so he delights to have that love overflow, that there might be many sons, that the Son might be the firstborn of many brothers. And so with this God, who's outgoingly gracious in who he is in eternity, eternally loving, it makes sense that he should have many others that he might love.

Now, if you're a single person, God, that just wouldn't make sense. Why would he create? But because the Father has always enjoyed loving the Son, creation seems not an essential thing he has to do at all, but a very characteristic thing for him to do. - Yeah, glorious. And all of creation, it flows out of God's abundant Trinitarian delight.

So I wanna press in here a little bit more. You have so clearly made this connection with the Trinity and the beauty of creation in your own life. Now, what happens in your mind and in your heart as you behold the beauty of creation? I mean, when you see the beauty of creation, you know, mountains, oceans, sunsets, what goes on in your own heart and mind?

- Yeah, oh, so many thoughts, so many thoughts. One would be, flowing directly out of what we're seeing, is that in creation, I'm not simply seeing the omnipotent power of God. And that's something which is true, which I think that's the thing that Christians major on when they talk about Psalm 19, the heavens declaring the glory of God.

That's true, we do see the power of God as how God must be super cosmically powerful to bring creation about, of course. But that hasn't explained why he's created. He doesn't create because of power, he creates because of this overflowing love. And so in creation, you see the generosity, the kindness of God.

He creates in the first place out of love, and he continues to sustain us, even rebels, continues to sustain us because of his ongoing generosity and kindness. He places stars there to shine in the darkness. He places, I find this so encouraging, every morning, the sun rising and driving away the darkness.

That's sort of Genesis 1 picture, but also reminded me of Jesus, the light of the world, that I see the purity, beauty, glory of God proclaimed in the heavens as the sun, like a bridegroom, shines and drives out all darkness. So that every day I find, just as I see the sun rising, I'm rejoicing to see God isn't, he isn't unkind, he isn't ungenerous, as I might naturally, as a natural idolater think.

He's so good, so kind, so generous. So by creation itself, I'm one back to praise him, I'm one back to delight in him. - Yeah, amen. At one point in the book, you say, "What we love is more important than what we do." What we love is more important than what we do.

Essentially, in the Christian life, the affections are central. I mean, so, so key to understand that. I mean, this emphasis is also reflected in your title, Delighting in the Trinity. And clearly, by writing this book, you don't just wanna fill minds with good theology about God, but you wanna see hearts that are filled with affection for God.

Explain why, in your own words, the place of the affections is so key in our understanding of God. - Yeah, the affections are so essential to who we are, so core in both sin and salvation. In sin, you see it, why is it that Eve takes the apple? That the action of her sin actually flows out of her affections, where her heart is, that she desires wisdom.

She wants to be like God more than she wants to trust God. So she's got a love for something else rather than a love for God. And that's how sin works in us. But the reason I act sinfully is because I've begun to desire sinfully. I've begun to desire something else more than I've desired God.

And this is James 1. Desire gives birth to sin, and sin gives birth to death. But the same thing, this is how we're built. And so the same thing works for salvation. I naturally don't desire God. I desire myself, I desire other things. But what the Spirit so kindly does is the Spirit opens my eyes to see the glory and beauty of God, and so wins my heart such that, and here's what I want to do in all my preaching, and I make this very clear when I speak, for example, to students in my church, I want people to see that the living God is more beautiful and more desirable than their sin.

And that's the Spirit's work through the Word. The Spirit opens our eyes that we might see Christ. A key verse the Puritans always turn to in their understanding of sanctification was 2 Corinthians 3.18. Richard Sibbes made that verse, in many ways, the centerpiece of his ministry. And 2 Corinthians 3.18 talks about how we are transformed from glory to glory as we gaze on Him.

This, by looking at Him, we become like Him. We shine like the Lord because we become like what we worship. We see how glorious He is, and He wins our hearts to Him, and we want Him more than anything else. - Amen. Delighting in Christ is a paradigm for Christian growth.

We've gotta see the glory of Christ in Scripture. So connect these themes for us. I mean, what would you say to those of us who find it to be a struggle in the morning when we approach the Bible, we open up our Bibles, we want to delight, but that delight is such a struggle.

What advice would you have for us? - Well, I think a key thing is to know why are you opening your Bible in the morning? What are you trying to do? And people approach their Bibles with all sorts of different motivations. And I confess, I approach my Bible each morning with very confused motivations.

And so we must know what we're doing as we're opening our Bible. Now, it is the truth of who Christ is. It is the light of who Christ is that will cause the heat of desire for Him. But we must know that this is why the Scripture's written. John Calvin put it beautifully when he's commenting on John 15.

He said, "The Lord has given us, "the Spirit has breathed out these Scriptures, "that we might have a hearty affection, "a cordial embrace of Christ." That's the point. And so as we open the Scriptures, let's cry out, Lord, let me see your glory, your beauty, your goodness, your kindness, your generosity, that I might love you afresh.

- Well, our time is up. And I'll end with this question. Our triune God is eternal. God existed in eternity past, and that changes how we view creation. But God is also eternally triune into the future, and that changes everything about heaven. It seems to me the distinctive features of what makes heaven heaven is the presence of our Trinitarian God.

So fill this out for us. What will eternity look like? What's to come? - Oh, what a lovely question. Well, it is that the Spirit will eternally be working in us and we will have spiritual bodies, Paul says, in 1 Corinthians 15, by which he means the Spirit, these will be real physical bodies, but animated by the Spirit through and through now.

And the Spirit's work is, well, he has two works in us. His first work is he unites us to the Son, such that as the Father has always cherished the Son and seen him as the apple of his eye, so we're embraced by the Father's love of the Son, and so that we can approach the Father as our Abba, so there's an extraordinary status gift the Spirit gives us, and so we can boldly go to the throne.

But there's more. The Spirit doesn't simply give us the status of Christ. He gives us the mind of Christ. He turns our hearts so that as the Spirit opens my eyes, I begin to see who Christ is and enjoy the Son as the Father has eternally enjoyed the Son.

And so I get to enjoy for eternity what has most pleased the Father for eternity. But also I get to enjoy the Father as my Father, as the Son has always done, and so I'm brought into this wonderful Trinitarian life of joy and love, and we'll be in these physical bodies in a renewed creation.

And I think this is where people seem to flip-flop. There are some people who get twitchy about the idea that we'll actually have a real earth to enjoy 'cause they see, isn't that a distraction from God? And there are some people who just talk about the joys of the new creation, the Messianic banquet and all that.

I want to say, no, the two work together really well, rightly well, they're designed to, in that we talked about how creation proclaims the glory of the Lord, that through the new creation, we will appreciate the generosity of God more. It'll be a part of our ongoing eternal existence that as we live in the new creation, we will see the glory of God manifest so perfectly, His generosity shown to us so well that we will delight in Him more and delight in each other too, now perfected.

So there'll be this Trinitarian life will revel in the new creation, and that Trinitarian life has been expanded to include the whole family of the Father, which means we'll all be enjoying living together with Him as brothers and sisters. - That's so good. That was historian and theologian Michael Reeves, who serves as the president and professor of theology at Union School of Theology in Oxford.

He is one of my favorite authors and author of a number of great books, including "Delighting in the Trinity." You'll want to check it out. Well, we are back with Pastor John the next two days, and we'll be talking about summer vacations and bikinis and modesty. It should be eventful.

I'm your host, Tony Reinke, and I will see you tomorrow. Thanks for listening to the "Ask Pastor John Podcast." (upbeat music) (upbeat music)