I cannot rest. And it's not just Kelly and I that's going to retire. Like, we need to figure out a path for everyone. So my experience of foreign missions is guilt. All right. Well, hello. Welcome to the official, unofficial Acts 2 Network podcast. We are launching lifelong kingdom workers from every college town.

My name is Stephen. I'm Isaiah. And today we have Pastor Ed. Hello, hello. Thanks for making time. And coming on the podcast. Yeah, so we're going to talk about something, I think, pretty interesting. I think a lot of people are going to want to hear. Yeah, yeah. And we want to pick your brain today, Dad, about the future of our church.

And I think... For those of you who don't know. Yes, my dad. So we want to talk about the future of our church. And particularly, like, what it's going to look like after you and mom retire. And I think that's increasingly a reality that we're having a face into, that that's coming.

Oh, yeah. And actually, I don't know if people know this, but, like, when we were first talking about some of these things, like, two years ago. I mean, we've been talking about it for a while. But when we were talking about it two years ago, like, the plan was for you to go into, like, some form of retirement.

Like, this year, I think, was the initial plan, right? Kind of that. Yeah, like a sabbatical. That got put on hold because of the foreign missions thing. So, before we get into, like, the rest of things, I wanted to just talk about that. Like, what was that initial plan?

And then what happened with the foreign mission thing? Because I think that's kind of an interesting story, too. Yeah. Well, you know, I think it was... I think it was 2020 or something where I declared that at age 65, so that would be 2028, that I'm going to step down, that we're going to step down.

And then COVID happened. And so the plan to sort of ramp up to that or ramp down to that, whatever, got derailed by two years. Somewhere along there, we were supposed to set up the structure that would go on without us at the helm. And then we would stress test that structure by being gone a year.

That's still my hope that that would happen. Wait, so when we first said that, what year was it theoretically supposed to happen? 2025. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. Or, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Earlier, because then we would have, like, three years to fix things afterwards. So it was whatever that was.

Yeah. And then this past year... Okay, so theoretically, you guys might still do that next year. Uh-huh. Okay? 2025. I think it has been a little bit of a wrench in the plans because of the foreign mission thing. Yeah. One of the... I heard recently that one of our ministry partners that has been helping us kind of think through this whole plan was like...

What did he say? That's great. That you guys did that. It wasn't part of the plan. Yeah, he was like, I turned my head away for a minute. And you guys started eight new mission fields. That's great. Don't do that again. I think it would be interesting to hear a little bit about, like, what the...

Because that wasn't in the plans, at least in your mind. It was not in the plans. How did foreign missions, like, come to be? Yeah, you know, oh, boy. Oh, my gosh. Well, okay, I'll just tell the story how it came to be. I was going to reach back and just share my thinking about foreign missions in general.

So, you know, the way that we've worked at our church is not so much... This is going to sound, like, odd to people because so much of what we do is top-down. But we're also very, very person-centric. So one person can have a conviction and the whole thing can turn.

So, you know, it was Justin. That was like how Davis started with... Justin. Justin Kim. It was Justin. Oh, wow, okay. I'm going to name him. All right, Justin Kim. Yeah. It's all your fault. He said, you know, how can I not go back to Cambodia? I'm young. I can still do this.

Could you please send us? And I think I brushed him off year one. Said, well, I'll find a couple of friends and maybe we'll think about it. And he came back to me again and then there were some other things in the air. And then, of course, EDM, you know, hearing some pretty powerful messages about your vision is too small if it doesn't encompass the world.

EDM is a conference for collegiate ministers. Yeah. One big theme of that is mission mobilization. That's the M. It's not electronic dance music. Yeah, yeah. Talking about evangelism, discipleship, and missions mobilization. Yeah, get the world's world missions. And, you know, and then there's sort of the diehard, you know, like East Asia team.

And so all of that was stirring. And so we decided, okay, we have to be, if we're going to do this and we have to send a team, and if we're going to send a team, then we're going to take care of them. And if we're going to take care of them, then we might as well look at other countries in the neighborhood.

And so it started with Cambodia, and then it went to Vietnam, it went to Thailand. We did this whole trip. And then Indonesia. And so we did the seven-country trip in I forgot how many weeks. I think we're out there close to a month. And then came back and couldn't rule out any of those countries.

And so after we came back in October, we sent out a sign-up sheet. And then I think 300-some people signed up. And then we're able to field a team to those seven countries, you know, 84 people out there right now. And the idea wasn't necessarily to, like, start our own stuff.

It was, like, finding people to help, but then also, like, exploring youth and, like, that kind of stuff. Yeah, so it wasn't our typical, like, we're going to land near a college campus and reach college students and disciple them. And it was also, like, we don't have to build our own thing.

Right. Because we saw people, like, heroic people out there. Like, why don't we come alongside them and add fuel to what they're doing? Yeah. Right. So we said, hey, don't start. We're not starting our own thing. We're looking for partners. Right. And we're looking for probably a couple of partners, you know, given how hyperactive we are.

You know, not one ministry could absorb our efforts, you know. So that was the approach. And it's starting to shift a little bit in some places as we're getting some traction with college students. So you were mentioning earlier, you were going to go here, but you didn't. But I think I would like to hear, like, yeah, you're kind of broader thinking about foreign missions.

Because I think maybe one question that could be asked is, yeah, how come it took us this long to do foreign missions? But it's also not our first time. It's not our first time. Yeah, we were in Taiwan for a long time. But, yeah, like, what was the – what shifted?

Because it did seem like we were resisting it for a long time. We're resisting it. And so my experience of foreign missions is guilt. I felt guilty before God. And before mission mobilizers, like, oh, man, you're doing the hardest stuff. And then to make up for that guilt, like, hey, but we're doing a lot here.

And eventually we'll get there. When we mature, eventually we'll get there. I think that's maybe the limitation of our ministry ethos is we don't just send, you know? And I think that's what distinguishes us from more nimble collegiate ministries. And I look at them and, like, wow, there's power there because they're focused on four years.

And, like, Cruz says, win, build, and send. Right. But send is literally, like, hey, we trained you. Now you go get them in your next season of life. You know, and we've – practically we found that people really flounder in major transitions. And college to post-college life is, I think, the biggest transition.

I think it's way bigger than high school to college. And so to be not there with them didn't make sense, largely also because our ministry philosophy is that we're a family on mission together. Yeah. So we're X2. We take care of one another. And so with that kind of ministry culture, to send overseas means we're all going overseas.

You know, that all of our attention and – and then I think we're kind of hung up on issues around safety a lot. I think because we're Asian. And then Asian parents don't understand that when a child reaches 18, they're adults. They don't understand that. And so whenever I think about any college student, I kind of imagine their parents and want to be responsible toward the parents with respect to what we're asking our students or even recent grads or even, like, people five years out of college to do.

And I'm very aware of how far a mission field can really grab somebody's heart and get them to go out there. And then the reality is very different. And it's really frustrating. And it's not what they had imagined. And would they be able to sustain that? And in order to be sure that they can sustain that, they would have to have community and they would have to have long-term support.

And every time we looked at that, we saw, you know, the campus next town over or other campuses that we haven't been able to reach. So it was a little bit of that. And I think maybe it's a sign that we have matured as a church, that now we feel like we can take this on.

And, like, wow, we're able to. I think we're able to support them pretty well this year. Yeah, so what's your, like, assessment of, so when we did it, we pulled the trigger, we sent these teams out. What's your assessment of how that's been and, like, what the future of Foreign Mission holds?

Yeah, well, we sent them out. They're all full-time. Like 83 of them, right? Yeah, and so we're supporting their rent and stipend and everything. And several things that I did not necessarily anticipate, the teams have gotten very close to each other. You know, it's just them out there. You know, you're at an outpost surrounded by a foreign culture.

Most of these places, 1040 window, you know, extremely low number of Christians. And so they bonded with each other a lot. I wasn't expecting, like, I'm so happy here. I was expecting, this is hard, but it's worth it because of Jesus. What I'm hearing is, I feel so joyful here.

So that was surprising. The teams are busy and doing well, and ministry has been fruitful. I thought, and I prepared them for this. Like, hey, first year, not much is going to happen. You're going to absorb the culture. You're going to figure out a lot of things for Team 2 and 3, how to live there, how to rent places, like, you know, what's possible, what's not.

But, wow, they're making some inroads and blessing a lot of different ministries, you know, meeting amazing people. We met this amazing network of Chinese Christians who are there in Indonesia. Like, they've moved there. They're missionaries, too. They're missionaries. And it's, you know, business as a mission. They have a bunch of cafes.

And I don't want to say more. I don't want to blow their cover, but, wow. That's crazy. So it's been exciting, and what we told them is, you are not going to stay another year. I told them that about 10 times before they left because I knew, can I stay?

Can I extend my stay? And, you know, we said you can go only if you get parental blessing, even grudgingly. And the terms was one year, and so they're all serving one year. So now we've got second-year teams ready to go. And one of the things that we're trying to test is, something kind of wild and crazy, is can we sustain continuity and momentum on a mission field by doing this second-year team swapping with the first year?

Because our short-term mission experiences has told us that affection for our teams from last summer transfers to the new team in the next summer. There's something about us that feels, and the information transfer is going to be very thorough because we're not strangers. So that's sort of what we're trying to test.

And if that should turn out to be possible, then this one-year stint in the foreign mission field becomes an incredible, like, sort of leadership training experience. You know, we've got couples with two kids out there, and the kids are having this experience without merely turning mission trip, like, the mission field into our own classroom for our own leadership development sake.

But actually trying to build continuity there with our mission partners and the things that we're doing. So hopefully that's the future. Now, I anticipate that some of our returnees from the mission field will want to go back long-term. And I have to brace for that. And then I think we'll have to go the traditional route, get some consultation from missions experts, do some language study, and really be prepared for that.

But I think that it would be in the future. It's that sort of phase two. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. So, you know, we sent all these people, and I think now our network's on, like, 70-plus campuses or whatever in eight countries. The chess board for when you guys retire is a lot more complicated now.

Yeah. It's like we've been building up and up and up, and now you guys are going to be in the not-too-distant future stepping down. So what can you tell us? I know a lot is still in development and kind of we're still at the drawing board, but what can you tell us about your current thoughts about what does X2 Network look like after you step down?

I think I'm less clear on what it looks like than what it shouldn't look like, what it's not going to look like. What it's not going to look like is what it looks like now, which is, you know, we've somehow managed to spread far and wide while still maintaining a very family-like relational cohesion.

And without sounding like I'm overestimating myself too much, I think it all ties to relational strength among the directors who all have very strong relational strength with, you know, network of people. So it all sort of revolves around a relational network with us at the core, and we are the oldest, literally, in our church.

And so it's not a role, I don't think, I mean, I play roles and I have functions, but Kelly and I, our role as just being the relational center that everybody just listens to, those two, um, I think that's going to come to an end and not be replaced.

So we're going from something like a family to a little bit more, um, process and, um, kind of, um, maybe strength, gifting, merit-based kind of organization, which is, uh, a big shift, big cultural shift, and it won't happen like in one step. And it's not just, um, Kelly and I that's going to retire.

Like we need to, you know, we, we, we're all, um, lifelong friends, lifelong people on mission together. So we need to figure out a path, uh, for everyone, uh, to retire into. So, you know, the other directors, they're, you know, maximum, about a decade behind us. And so, you know, when you get to be in your sixties, you know, like some of us are super agers and some people are going to start losing it a little faster.

So, you know, right around that time, we all need to be, you know, like gardening somewhere in one of our, our, our retreat sites or like, we all need to figure something out to do together. And hopefully we'll be, uh, uh, uh, like a wisdom council there to draw from.

So it's not just figuring out our organizational, um, future, but also kind of a, a fulfilling and age appropriate pathway for us. And all the, uh, the subsequent people leaders who have been faithful three decades, four decades, you know, and, um, that's got to feel, uh, good. That's got to feel like acts two, that's got to feel fulfilling, you know, we'll continue to preach the gospel somewhere.

Um, we'll start going to different nursing homes, uh, you know, and so, so that has to be figured out, um, like a, like a pathway for our whole church. So is Barnabas part of that or is that? Yeah. Yeah. And then, yeah. So Barnabas is a huge part of that because we're, we're noticing that people, um, so in another 10 years, we're going to have, uh, I think it's 99 exactly empty nester couples.

Wow. Right now we have 17. Wow. Man, once you're an empty nester, you don't have to go home. Like you have, and by that time you have so much wisdom and there's such benevolence toward young guys doing the hard things in the front lines. And so I think, um, so we started the, the Barnabas group, you know, Barnabas from son of encouragement to encourage our, our younger couples offering a lot of wisdom classes, like how to talk to your children, um, how to handle stress.

But I think it has to be, it has to be built out a lot more and a lot more at all of our hub cities where we can be within driving reach of a lot, a lot of younger people so that we can take care of their marriage and their families.

So that will be a big part of it. As for, um, the organizational shape of our, uh, movement. I, I can see, uh, workable solutions around several different, different paths and we haven't quite settled on one. Um, I think we can, uh, become radically autonomous, uh, and be tied together in a cooperative sense.

So we'll cooperate together for big projects. We'll still do like national staff conference, but maybe open it up to outsiders or we can do, um, we can place a lot more of the governance and decision-making in the regions because often the local ministry, uh, depending on what city, what campus you're in, you're not going to have the people resources, uh, to be able to, to handle some things that come up.

Um, and so maybe the region, and so we would, um, and, and the thing that I'm afraid of is people think, oh no, we're breaking up. And like, no, we're not, we're, we're, we're actually, uh, going to enhance ministry and, uh, keep our very people-centric orientation, person-centered orientation and considerations by making decision-making happen much closer, uh, to, to the people that are going to have to live with those decisions.

Uh, and so, um, so, um, so, so, so it's sort of the size of the basic unit and how decision-making is going to happen there. And it'll probably be some kind of plurality of leaders, but the plurality of leaders sort of specializing in maybe mission expansion, staff care, uh, things like that, so that people's lanes are predefined by their roles.

Uh, and then some may be very loose, uh, national organization, which at a certain point may just phase out. So that's sort of one, one pathway. Another pathway is to keep, um, the national organization, um, strong in terms of training resources. Uh, because I think one of the things about our churches, we're all about bivocational, everybody in our network, vast majority, but, um, they're getting plenty of training and expertise by doing it.

But sometimes they need to be pulled back and receive some, some, some training. Yeah. And so, and training is one way to, uh, kind of, um, create a sense of oneness, uh, without it being organizationally united. So that's another idea. So we're trying to figure that out still. Yeah.

So there's a lot, like, kind of like you're saying necessarily with you guys gone, things are going to change. Like, it's not going to be the exact same. Um, I guess one question would be, what are some of the things that you feel like we like definitely have to hold on to?

Like preserve kind of the non-negotiables no matter what, this we need to preserve about us. You know, maybe it's not that we're one big group anymore, but this we need to preserve. And then what are some things that people might not think about that you think we could let go of that, you know, that we do currently, but you would be okay losing.

Well, I think, um, the number of things that we need to preserve, I think the, depending on at what resolution we talk about it, it could go on and on. Um, but I think, um, priesthood of all believers, you know, everybody should be serving in ministry, no spectators, no, no pure warmers, um, de-emphasizing gifting so that, um, so that it doesn't subvert, um, priesthood of all believers, everybody being on ministry together, uh, that, that, that value intention.

And then, um, and then, um, and then I think, um, very non, sort of, sort of low emphasis on doctrinal, uh, fine points of doctrine, you know, mere Christianity, G-O-S-P-E-L, you know, gospel, uh, soul winning, saving souls, very great commission focused, and, um, doing it as a family on mission together.

Um, I, I mean, spiritual family on mission together. Um, so I think, I think if we preserve that, everything kind of follows, um, I think there are a lot of things we could lose. Um, and, um, and, um, in some ways I, I think, um, the younger somebody is, the more they don't know how to distinguish, um, what's, what's central and what are just, like, precedents that somebody did that you don't have to do anymore or, you know, it's very flexible.

Yeah. What are some of those? Um, I think, um, a lot of our value stances of the past had certain decisions around them that were very context-specific and time-specific and, and, and generation-specific. Mm-hmm. But those get, those keep getting passed down. Mm-hmm. So, um, I don't know, um, what are some of those?

I think, like, um, being, being all up in arms about, like, flirtatious behavior and co-ed gatherings and things like that, I think we totally lose that. There's no way that's a battle we can win or worth, worth engaging in. Mm-hmm. So I still hear people saying, like, oh, no, you know, a bunch of upperclassmen, um, got together, like, some freshmen and sophomores, and, at the dorm lounge, and they were watching, I don't know, something.

And, and, um, of course, like, of course you're nervous about that, right? And you weren't there. And, you know, if, if people are doing something and you weren't there, you already feel like, well, what the heck happened? You already feel a little bit disapproving toward that. And, and then, you know, these are students and, you know, maybe, so you're, you're concerned about, so this sort of, like, oh, one, one bad exposure to something shady could, like, infect them or something.

Like, kind of a hypervigilant, sort of antiseptic, germophobic kind of, um, uh, point, like, that kind of view of people and ministry. Um, I think, um, I think it was, uh, like, early on, you know, we're really struck by a sense of God's holiness. And I think, um, a lot of us early on came out of Korean churches, like, the top leadership still remains very Korean.

And, um, there's something about Korean churches, especially in the, in the seventies and eighties, um, it was like immigrant phenomenon, you know, people immigrate, like you can be whatever you're going to go to church. So, you know, all the deacons are drinking and smoking and like, you know, it's, it's sort of a community gathering.

And so kids growing up, they saw a lot of, uh, a lot of that kind of thing and, and reacting against that. I think we were very, very locked in on holiness, no drinking. It's surprising today. Cause we don't want to be that church. But the vast majority of evangelicals thought you couldn't, you couldn't touch a drop of alcohol and smoking.

I don't know what, I don't know what the problem, like smoking is like, oh my gosh, you're, you're such a sinner. You know, the pastor comes here, you're hiding all the cigarettes and stuff. And, um, and so those kinds of boundary marking, and, um, I think some of that's laudable, you know, even if it's the specifics seem a little dated now, like an idea, um, of not losing God's blessing is still very, very important to me.

Like we don't want to lose God's blessing. And I think, um, doing ministry in a way that violates God's values. Yeah. I may get you short-term gains, but no. So, uh, again, you know, if I see somebody like extremely talented, but poor character, like, no, I'm, I'm not going to exploit your, your gifting.

You know, I'm going to work on your character and try to, try to, so, so those are some of the, so I'm going all over the place, but, but, but, but so that focus on holiness, and I think we're young and we're scared. God was doing something in our midst, and we did not want to compromise at all.

Want to guard it. Yeah. Uh, but then it became maybe a little too rigid over time, especially when we're imposing this or, or trying to make that kind of a requirement for Christian discipleship, uh, among college students. So we used to have a very strong stance against like gaming, for example, like video gaming.

We, I just thought that was crazy. That was horrible. Like, how could you possibly do that? You know, and now you have like pastors gaming, like, you know, it's a, so things, things change, but when it first comes, like our initial reaction is like, wait, what is that? Is, is it okay to just indiscriminately go with that, you know?

And, um, so then some of those precedents and some of that tone and some of that attitude, uh, gets played out in ways that are not very context specific. And, um, and yeah, and, and then like, is that what's important versus this person getting the gospel, you know? Um, so if, so I think we've, we've even tried to spell out all of the things like, Hey, like, let's just, this doesn't apply anymore.

Right. Yeah. Like in the way of life and things like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's subtle. Okay. Cause I think what I'm hearing you say is like, um, uh, it's, it's there, there, we are who we are still. And there, there are things that we, um, for, for different reasons, like we, um, we like really held onto them, you know, and, and maybe it had a lot to do with even our own spiritual progress and growth and everything.

And, um, and so you can't just like suddenly just cut that out of yourself and say, we're not doing that anymore. Right. But to, um, as you mature, as you get older, as you realize what hills are worth dying on and stuff, you, you gotta, it's, it's a process almost to kind of sort that out.

And so, um, it's not a, maybe not the easy answer that most of them want to hear. Like, well, can we just stop, you know, like, let's just free it up, you know, but. Yeah. And it's graduated too. So, um, understanding of ethics as, as graduated, you know, graduated.

So you don't impose, uh, certain, like, you know, I have a pet peeve about telling kids to share, you know, like two, three year olds, like, nah, you don't need to share. You, you grab that first. You keep it because another kid will come and grab the truck or whatever and say, share, you know, and then some teacher or babysitter is liable to say, yeah, you should share.

Like, it's not breakable. It's, it's not like a piece of bread you can share. Right. So somebody has to keep it. I think, um, like graduated ethics would say, well, he's only three years old. Just, you know, like don't burden him with sharing. Yeah. So just don't kill each other.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, so I think, um, to, to, to understand, uh, where college students are and where like, like, like if you're a dad and, and you have toddlers and you're still playing video games on your phone constantly, you know, at a certain point, I'm like grabbing that phone and like yelling at you, you know, at a certain, if I love you and if we're close enough, like, dude, what the heck are you doing?

Yeah. You know, don't you see this kid looking at you? Uh, I wouldn't do that to an 18 year old, you know? So, so all of that's very nuanced. You know, how close are you, you know, what, what age appropriate, you know, and we're still very much against, um, media from time, uh, stewardship perspective, as well as addictive or as being exposed to sexual imagery and all of that unholy stuff.

Like I'd rather not do that. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Yeah. And I think one, one big shift I think I've seen in our thinking is, Hey, let's like, it's like what you're saying. It's the graduated ethics thing. I think maybe we didn't have a good handle on that before.

It's sort of like, as soon as you enter our door, like we're going to dump the whole enchilada. You know? And now it's like, okay, freshmen, we're not going to fight those battles. And if you're still around 30 out of college and you still want to be here, then okay, then we can start talking about those things.

And also, also students back in the days that were stronger, um, that I think the, the, the, the power dynamic was, I felt like they, they'll just say no, if they don't want to do it. Yeah. Or, or they'll like, um, they'll like pretend that they're going along and they're totally not.

And they're okay with that. I kind of know they're not. So it's this weird Korean culture thing that people don't understand. It's really hard to describe, but, um, when, when a person of authority tells you to do something that's ridiculous, you say that you'll do it. And then you, you totally won't.

And so this, this is interesting. And the person who told you to do it, like, you know, this guy's not going to do it, but you appreciate the fact that he lied to you and said, I'm going to do it. And, and it's like complex Western lens on that is like, that's deceptive and that's wrong.

And how can you ever communicate anything in an organization like that? But there's aspects of that, that sort of honoring and face saving, but you're kind of out of touch and I'm actually not really going to do that. Um, you know, like be careful when you cross the street, son.

And, you know, the son's like 20 years old, like, oh, thank you, dad, for telling me that I'll be careful. I'm totally not going to be careful. Right. I'm going to ignore this. So, so there's that, um, so, so the students change too, and people have become way more, um, um, um, kind of, um, people pleasing and, um, feel easily pressured and things like that.

So here we are a church that's trying to be like, yeah, like really, really uphold the holiness of God, really wanting to disciple students and, and make them holy and transformed and be like Jesus. And, um, and, and, and, and, and a rapidly changing social, emotional, psychological context. Yeah.

Yeah. So back in the day, it felt like, oh, these words, like this exhortation, it's just like a little stick. I'm poking with you with, whereas now it's perceived as no, you're holding a sword to my throat. I thought this was just a little stick. It's a battle ax in there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can see that. So that's, so you're naming, like, I mean, we talked about like things we need to preserve and lose. There's, it sounds like there's a lot of pivots we need to make organizationally and all that stuff. But it's also on the other side, what you're touching on is a lot of changes in the culture around us, a lot of changes in the world where it seems like every day something crazier and crazier is happening.

Is it, can you just share like just some of your thoughts on that, just like what's going on in the whole world and, and our churches, like, like how we need change to meet that. Yeah. Or, or what, what role we might fill or, or space we might play in there.

I mean, I think we've begun to just, we talk about that sometimes, you know, just what's going on in the world. Yeah. I think it's important to be aware, but, um, not, um, not complain too much. Um, I, um, I, um, I complain about the world and how bad the world is.

Yeah. Yeah. Um, which is actually one of the things happening in our culture. Yeah. Like America is just the, the worst and, and we live in the hardest time ever and raising children in America is nearly impossible. That's one of the things that's happening in the culture. Christian version of that is like, oh my gosh, the world is crazy and we have to, um, you know, we have to, to, to huddle together in this enclave and, and, uh, reject the world.

And so that's always been the case. But now that everybody's in their, um, information silos, then it gets, it gets amplified. Um, so, um, I, I think the trend is, I think, uh, kind of peaked, uh, of, um, everybody trying to outdo themselves in, um, in thinking that they've been victimized.

Uh, I, I think that trend has, has sort of peaked hopefully. Um, and I think, um, while caring for the weak against, um, powerful authority figures that can harm them comes from a good place. Um, I think everybody agrees it's been a little overdone and the net effect of that is the generation that grew up with that.

They're very, very lonely because they're cutting off everybody. They're cutting off friends. They're cutting off all entire generation as being clueless. Um, parent-child estrangement is like really on the rise and it's, you know, like 90% of it is children sort of disowning parents. So, and I think people are seeing that.

And so I think the community creating power of the gospel is, um, in, in desperate need more than any other time I've seen. Um, so yeah. And, you know, we've tried not to be, um, angry, uh, at these kinds of trends. Um, I think the, the conditions in which we're doing ministry is more favorable than any other time.

Um, I, I think, I think that's true. Um, so, and harvest continues to be plentiful. So I think, um, bemoaning the trend of the world is not a good pastime for Christians while we need to discern, you know, like, like it says in Ephesians chapter five, you know, you need to discern the time and find out and expose the fruitless seeds of darkness.

So we need to be, um, be, be, be critique, we need to have a critique of the culture always from a biblical perspective, but emotionally, I don't think that should defeat us. Kind of a related question. So I think, I don't know if that's why, but I do feel like we're, yeah, I mean, we're seeing that in our culture.

Um, I also think that one thing I've been seeing is that, um, just college ministry, when I see some college ministry questions, because we are a college ministry church, at least initially. Launching my funk and worse from every college town. But college ministry has been tough. Yeah. And I think that's the reality.

Like our ministries have not been doing well as maybe like 10 years ago, like when we were in college, um, you know, and we say, we jokingly say that we're going to make college ministry great again. Not, not in a political sense, we are apolitical, but, but, you know, just in the, we just say that to be funny.

Like what, what are some shifts that you think we didn't make that our college ministry needs to make to kind of, I don't know, be the moment. Yeah. Meet the moment, I guess. Cause I don't know if anyone has the answers to that. And I know it's a question we're all asking, but yeah.

You know, um, just Christian work in general has suffered a lot. Um, I think, um, a lot of organizations that, um, used to, um, see crowds gathering, um, you know, that's no more. Um, so there's something about the culture that doesn't take to showing up at a certain time at a certain place.

And that's sort of the formula that a lot of Christian work has depended on. It's like, it's your Sunday service. It's 12 p.m. And, and people just don't operate that way. I don't, I don't show up to a certain place at a certain time that starts at a certain point and ends at a certain point.

I don't even show up at work. I work from home. Yeah. Yeah. People, people just don't do that anymore unless you're Taylor Swift and you're like this phenomenal talent that you cannot experience at anywhere else, you know, and that's rarely the case, um, so, and then what do we do?

We bring them to a room and we want to deliver them content, but there's amazing content everywhere. Yeah. And so I think, um, it, people just have a hard time getting out of that mindset, uh, because people won't get out of a habitual thing unless there's an interesting thing for them to get out into.

And so what I think we need to do is generate way more options. And I think we should, um, kind of, um, sort of break, break out of the, here are the things you're supposed to do, including Sunday service is supposed to be on a Sunday and it's a particular place with a preacher.

I think when we break out of all of that, uh, and then generate, um, I don't think it's possible or I don't think the, there there's, there's some genius who's going to figure this out because then that would have happened already. I think what we need to do is create a lot of options so that kind of evolutionarily something emerges.

And we haven't been able to do that because I think our usual methods have had inertia, uh, and, um, and has had enough fruit, but it's, it's not, it's not as fruitful as it used to be, but I think it's time to kind of, um, create way more teams to go out to way more campuses, uh, with high permission, um, and, uh, maybe even, even prohibition against certain things like, you can't do a Sunday service, um, something like that.

But I think we need to do that. I, I think we needed to do that. Yeah. That resonates. Yeah. I do feel like, like I'm running into students on campus and they are more, they are spiritually hungry. They have questions, but like as good as that conversation is out on campus, like when the special talk or the Bible study rolls around, they just, they don't come, you know, they forget ahead or so like, yeah, how do we meet them in the middle and what are some other options and ways to engage?

And I don't know if anyone like has the answer, but it does like, yeah. Yeah. And, and we have, we have tantalizing clues, but then because we have our seven day, you know, hamster wheel that sucks our energies, we're not able to follow our hunches and try different things to, to see, uh, test out what's going to happen.

So I feel like this 2025, we really need to, um, maximize the diversity of approaches and who leads and what, like team configuration and what kind of campuses. And, um, so I think we need to figure it out. Um, yeah, 2025 will be the year to make college grade again.

I think so. I don't know. Me either. Yeah. The year of the great scattering will be the year of great sewing. Yeah. Maybe. Oh yeah. Hey, I like that. So, uh, couple more questions. I think we're going to wrap up in a little bit, but kind of just as zooming out now, as you think about the future and I, I mean, I, to be frank, I think for a lot of us at our church, especially the ones who've been around for a bit, the thought of, uh, post pastor Ed and Kelly, Aksu Network is not just hazy, but kind of, kind of scary, kind of terrifying.

It's pretty fair. Um, what would you say, what are a couple of things that give you confidence and hope that Aksu Network will be okay after you're gone? And maybe what are the things that worry you if you want to go there? Um, yeah, what, you know, um, I feel, I feel pretty confident.

Um, I, I actually do. Um, if we're all in one place, you know, and I suddenly died, it's like, oh, but we're already so scattered that there's going to be like, let's say that we never talked about succession and none of this was in the works, we didn't, and we suddenly die.

Um, what's going to happen? Whatever happens, every local leader has their team and we share the DNA. And I think eventually the fellowship will happen according to organic and, and, um, sensible ways, like within driving distance or something like that. So I don't think that, that there's, there's like one missile that can take us out anymore.

Um, so, but what I'm, what I'm, um, what I'm eager to preserve is this sense that, uh, we are going to be, uh, friends and co-laborers, fellow, you know, king, cousin, crew until, until the grave. Like that continuity and that sense that whatever happens to me, I, I have this whole network, uh, that, that's going to take care of me.

Yeah. Like that sense of security. Cause I think people are brave when they know that they're loved. Yeah. Uh, and so I think preserving that, I think that's going to get preserved. It's just preserving that in, in, in some kind of, um, in the, in the way that we enjoy it currently.

Uh, you know, it might not be even such a, such a helpful thing. Um, so I, the, the, the several different ways that, that things can, can pan out if we don't smoothly do the succession. Um, none of those paths look very, very awful to me. Hmm. Yeah. But, but I, I know that's just me.

I know, I know that, you know, I know like if you're, if you're like a six year and you happen to be at a church and all of your friends are like in a different city and your peers, like the three peers you have there, like you don't really like each other.

And then, and then like the iron curtain comes down, let's say, or something then like, Oh no, I want to move. And so some of that, you know, would or could happen. It's not the end of the world, but I feel like, um, I feel like culture is really resilient.

And I, I experienced us, um, going through COVID with hardly, um, any problems. In fact, I think we had fun. Uh, so, uh, and then after COVID emerges, I see like all of these, like. Uh, I heard John Tyson, who's a pastor that a lot of people think is like sort of the, um, sort of the, the, the, the spiritual legacy of, of Tim Keller is, is, is continued by him.

And, um, he was quoted in an interview as saying 75% of what Tim Keller and the Redeemer network did, uh, in the past 30 years, uh, has, has been wiped out through COVID. Ooh. Uh, so I don't know what that means, you know, but wow. Um, so, um, but I think that we're going to be, um, pretty, pretty resilient.

Um, and, um, but, um, but then, um, continuing to, uh, expand and continuing to like send out teams that may slow for a while. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Because while everybody's paying attention to the local ministries, the mission expansion part has been carried by me and Kelly largely. Mm-hmm. And so I think that has to be divvied up.

Mm-hmm. You know, soon. Got it. Got it. Any, um, final words for people watching this? I think in particular, like, as you look at this, the younger ones, I know everyone is a younger one to you, but as you look at the younger ones, um, what would you tell them?

Like, hey, here is like, if you, if you could tell them one thing and you, they were going to listen, they're going to actually carry it out. Not, not the Korean way. Yeah. Like they actually, they're actually going to listen. They're actually going to do it. Like what would be that piece of advice?

Hey, work on this. So that no matter what happens after I'm gone. Hmm. Well, um, well, I feel like I'm always talking about that in one way or another, but, um, wow. I think, um, the latest thing that's sort of, uh, bugging me is, um, the ability to open your Bible and bless people.

Hmm. I think, um, one thing that our ministry could be, could be characterized as having solved in a way that many ministries have not solved is how to do effective ministry, um, with a lot of eager people who are willing, but who don't have the, the ability to teach Bible.

Hmm. Right. We've leveraged the, the, the efforts of a lot of people to, to be able to church plant and go out in mission fields. And I think, um, what I'm sensing in the culture is that there's going to be, um, a need for informal, um, like, let's just read the Bible together.

Mm-hmm . And so I think the future is going to involve a lot more of those kinds of small gatherings that are not like, okay, you are part of my discipleship group. But so just, um, overall Bible competency in the sense of being able to, um, draw out. So, so not like proclaiming and preaching the word so much.

I think we're really strong on personal evangelism, sharing the gospel, but, um, getting people engaged in just the text of scripture. I think, um, you know, through years of daily devotions, you know, um, there should be some level of competence on that. But I think we should raise more people who actually have some training on how to lead those kinds of Bible studies.

Yeah. That resonates. There was that article the other day about how like Bible purchases have gone up like 20% from last year or something. And a lot of it is among young Gen Z and first time Bible readers and like something like 60%, like want to know about the Bible or something like that.

Yeah. So like the hunger's there, they might not come to church for it or like a Bible study, but if someone they know or a friend will open up the Bible with them. Yeah. It's less like come to something to receive content. It's more like, no, you have to be the content.

Yeah. Now all of us have to be the content. Yeah. So what I would, so to, to kind of make it more concrete for everybody, I would say, um, approach your daily devotion more systematically, you know, spend a chunk of time every week or maybe 10, 15 minutes afterwards.

And, and, and organize your thoughts. If somebody shared something that was interesting, write it down, capture it somewhere so that next time you go to that text, it's there and, and just, just keep sort of depositing it, depositing it somewhere. Yeah. Instead of, um, just thinking about it as an experience that's over and you, you got blessed through it and that's it, you know?

So. Yeah. Well, on that note, I think we'll, or did you have any final questions before we- Um, no, I don't think so. Um, any thoughts for what you're going to do in retirement? Oh yeah. Yeah. What are you going to do once you're done here? I know there's probably like- I, I, I, you know, there's one thing I'm terrified of is rest.

I cannot rest. I cannot rest. So, um, we have to, so retirement, um, is not that, Oh, we're, we're leaving our church or I'm have nothing to do anymore. And I'm going to go somewhere in Florida and golf. Um, it's the idea that, um, me and along with, uh, others in due time, we are going to step away from all directional, um, leadership role with respect to our, but I personally feel like I would have a great time writing children's curriculum.

I think, I think, um, investing in our children's ministry, I think is probably one of the most important things anybody can be doing right now. Like if you're an X2 kids ministry, that's not, that's not babysitting. And I think I look, we've been searching high and low for good, um, children's ministry content and it's, it's pretty poor.

So that's, that's something I think I would enjoy doing. Wow. Wow. So even after retiring, just next gen, like investing in the next. Yeah. That's, that's, that's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Man, I think we can close it there. Um, thanks for coming on and don't forget to like subscribe and we will see you on a future episode.

Okay. Thank you.