people always ask me we did not have people beating down our doors like I always one of the things I've heard throughout the course of Barstool you should be making so much money here and doing this there and deals there it's like I'm looking no one I don't see these mythical deals everyone's talking about and there was no bidding war when churning came around Dave Portnoy thanks for joining us yep Barstool Dave you obviously own and run a media business I guess best way to describe it Barstool's got media franchises spanning sports gambling pizza reviews and you've got a huge audience you've you've been through an incredible corporate history which I think one of the things we wanted to talk about today was talking about the business if you're up for it yep and talk a little bit about the history of the business super interesting to us when the acquisition happened with Penn and the subsequent buyback we thought it was a super interesting story we actually reached out and tried to have a conversation with you at that time about it but unfortunately missed you so we're really glad to have you here today we'll hope to talk about that hope to talk about media free speech politics I think there's a lot of stuff you've talked about that we often talk about that I think we'd love to just have a dialogue and we'll see where this goes sounds good yeah welcome to the all-in interview and thanks for being with us and Chamath anything you want to start with tell us about just getting out of New York yeah so we were saying before we relocate to New York in 2016 when churning bought half the company it was basically the concept was create a reality blog media type company turn the lights on see what happened let everyone see it into the company and it was easier to get talent we thought New York attract people to work and when athletes or entertainers come through they usually stop in New York and we can grab them into the office so that's why I moved there I don't think anybody in our company loved New York it was not I mean I personally think it's a dirty city I don't like it I just not my favorite cup of tea and then I also got a lot of money so once we're starting to get more money with and I guess fast forward me because when we did a second the pen deal I was like I'm not the taxes are so crazy there Florida I went during kovat because it was an open state that's really what initiated this whole thing is when kovat happened New York locked down Florida was pretty much open so I went there visited and then kind of stayed there longer term during kovat Black Lives Matter happened a lot of things are happening in New York City and like I may stay in Miami were you the only shareholder when churning when Peter bought 35 or whatever 40% of the business Peter bought 51 right at that time 51% so for employees of mine I had given equity like hey if something happens you have small it wasn't any I don't even know if it's on paper but for the most part yes I had given away 10 to 12% of the company to my long-term employees that was 2016 and when they bought when churning bought 51% was that a buyout or that money going into the company so they fit yeah they valued the company and I think 12 and a half million wildly I didn't know what I was doing they really that was too low but whatever that's what they valued it for I think I got about if I recall three and a half million went to me personally and then the rest went into the business account right and then you ran it you moved it to New York and you ran the business for a couple years and obviously things took off the the business grew we're turning group like active at this time like were they helpful or was it you building the business and they were just kind of quiet financial sponsors how yeah how did that face go so when they they purchased us they basically gave the money we did we weren't great at business the first thing we did we went out and hired Eric and our genius CEO so she really helped expand the business side of what we were doing and we exploded but churning to answer your question they weren't involved at all I think they really I mean slightly here or there if we had a question I think the biggest thing they did is probably credibility like I was probably seen as and still am at times like a wild card like you don't know what you're dealing with and you put the churn and name on it it's like oh these guys are legit they're real and maybe helped us get into meetings and doors but they weren't any day-to-day operations at all probably I would say the best thing they did is they stayed out of our way well that's that's crazy because they in like three and a half years almost or maybe four years you took the business from like twelve and a half million valuation to like this is the question I yeah the question is Dave when that business explodes are you are you spending like a few minutes every day saying god damn why did I do this deal like or did you think it was really still worth it you know when the company goes I never question it because again turn it we did people always ask me we did not have people beating down our doors like I always one of the things I've heard throughout the course of bar sold you should be making so much money here and doing this there and deals there it's like I'm looking no one I don't see these mythical deals everyone's talking about and there was no bidding war when churning came around so while understanding it my biggest thing I've never sold the company I wasn't looking to sell a company when they approached us they really were looking at like our gross revenue and I didn't care about gross revenue at all I care about making a profit and putting money in my pocket and that's how we that's how we earned our living they were basing our net worth they give me like comps of other companies I'm like we are way bigger than they are but they like well they've gross sales and all this like well they're losing money like I if you want if I had a year to build up for that sale and I just want to inflate our gross revenue I could done that easily I did it so we definitely sold it for far less but at the same time they were the a they were one of the only serious offers we had and they stayed out of our way they were kind of in a way the perfect partner outside the price because they let us do our thing so I didn't regret it and so when the pen deal came around was that you saying guys we have to really think about this or is that churn and saying we need to think about this before you get to the pen deal how did how did the growth how did the business go crazy over that three-and-a-half years did you invest a lot of capital at that time I mean how did the business go from you know twelve and a half to half a billion dollars is it that you bet you shifted the strategy and said hey let's go after a revenue now or I think it was it was probably two major things we we Erica was a perfect hire and built out the business side and people just totally underestimated us like I knew how big we were and in a weird way I think a lot of times even though people know us now they still are kind of flabbergasted when you go under the hood and see our influence like we barstools around 20 years so during the time that we sold I always gave the analogy and this is old internet but people throw numbers out and how big their audience was and it's like if you're watching TV and someone has a remote control and they're just clicking every every second it's like everybody got one view like my network has a view my network has a view and I'd be telling people yeah but ours aren't changing the channel like they're what they're our viewer is one they're on in the channel for 30 minutes listening so our influence was just underestimated so when you and we did nothing on the business side like we really were so busy on creating content and you had to knock down our door to advertise with us so when we change that philosophy like let's build out the business side our tech all of it with our existing audience it was just kind of like a powder keg that exploded it didn't shock me to be honest granted the original business plan said in five years they wanted to sell it for like 50 million that was the original business plan and we got past that in like six months but you guys you guys decided to build quote-unquote in the wild like you had cameras inside you made stars of some of the people in there was that organic or with that that was like an explicit decision you're like this could be really interesting because these people are really odd characters they'll be great for television yeah so it was organic in the sense I started barstool I didn't want anyone know who I was it was strictly business it was a it was supposed to be like a gambling rag and I had fake names and all this but in the early days of the newspaper it slowly shifted that people were much more interested in the personalities behind everything so by the time we went to New York we knew with the focus should be on the personalities and the people we had working here and we have this wild cast of characters and we had a bit we were hiring people that were no one else would ever hire or give a chance I often say we're one of the first like digital true digital media companies like the people we found all the way from a Jenna Marbles to Pat McAfee to Alex Cooper McAfee couldn't get a job when he was done punting like you how did you hire McAfee how did he was a fan McAfee was a fan and we met him during a Super Bowl like we were at the Super Bowl and we couldn't get credentialed we had an RV that we parked outside and guests come on McAfee came on and he knew he wanted to get into media I think he wanted to work at ESPN they wouldn't hire him we did and obviously the rest of history with him Alex Cooper had a podcast that she just started we saw a sizzle reel for it it was something we'd never seen before so we called her into the office and when I met her she basically was like well I edited and made this entire sizzle reel myself like how'd you do that she's like I self-taught myself so we hired her no idea what would become with her podcast but we were willing to take chances almost like a band label type model it's like you hire this talent and you hope they hit there's a lot of misses we have how do you look at that like is it just instinct intuition you you see someone you're like they got it they don't have it I mean you kind of yeah it is instinct but it's wrong a lot of times that's why I go to the band label like you hear something this is unique this is interesting I may it may not always work for me like in my own personality a lot of the people who come from networks they're so used to being told what to do it's like all the way up this is how you produce it this is the hits this is what you have to do we didn't do any that it's Alex go do your thing sink or swim on the internet the beauty of the internet it will tell you voting machine it's all right yes oh yeah you know that's not true on ESPN maybe more so now but if you have you know Sports Center back in the day or you have the NFL show or your CBS you almost have to watch it old terrestrial radio there aren't options the internet like you said a voting machine so we'd hire people and let the internet decide what became of them you know the old studio model Dave they would have talent development and so there would be these producers that would come in and help the talent get better train and teach them the art etc but it sounds like do you guys do that I mean do you kind of stay out of their way you kind of let them run let them figure it out themselves and there's no training there's no tools there's no toolkit that says here's how you become successful here's how you here's what you got a hit on here's what you got to do well here's what you got to learn not to do etc yeah we don't do any of that I would say all those people anybody who tried to do what you just described would not be with us and I'd say is a dinosaur like again the people we've hired from networks the talent it's like they need their handheld for the most part there are so waiting this is what you do this is what you say and we don't do any of that yeah so the raw independent talent you just let them run they take off so then the business blows up yeah and then yeah tell us about the pen deal like how did that how did that conversation start when it happened we talked about it on our show because Chamath and I have talked a lot about this idea of the individual influencer media brands need to monetize in non-traditional ways it's not just about selling ads but there's kind of you know CPG businesses are being launched by Kim Kardashian and Kylie Jenner and there's an entirely new business model that's emerged with the independent media businesses that have been created over the last decade and this seemed like a very good example of that I guess how did the conversation with Penn start and how did that that deal kind of come about yeah so they changed the laws in the United States that's what sparked it when they said get sports gambling was going to become legal and a state issue we started when I started the thing we were a gambling newspaper like that's what we were so when that happened I instantly was like this is our chance so we proactively went out and tried to solicit deals like I had worked with Draftkings I'd worked with FanDuel back then Draftkings when they were four people they offered me stock in the company they're they're Boston guys I remember we sat down and we were kind of building our thing they were building there so I knew this space inside and out we really didn't get any offers we hired molas which is like a banking sign oh yeah they suck absolutely suck behind the door is one of the guys trashed me so the reason they weren't getting any offers was because I was like an ass or something to that effect I caught wind of that still irks me they got one penny of Commission on that sale but right the pen came through we had a guy David who's in the gambling space who introduced us to pen I had never heard of them and Erica and I hit it off with Jay Snowden the CEO and that deal basically was exclusively negotiated between Jay and I Eric involved to churning wasn't involved they didn't really want to talk to churning they want to talk to Erica and I because that's who they would be dealing with so it's like what's Dave about does Dave and Erica get along what's the company about and we negotiated that deal pretty much exclusively and then the deal was set up as a two-stage right like they bought a piece and then they bought the rest later correct which yeah my understanding of it it was always going to happen that way like right and and you know there are conversations that maybe would have changed our fortunes who knows like in the beginning do we call it parcel sports book or not because some people may not have a taste for bar so I argued we should we lose what is one of the great things I could have been wrong because dealing with state legislatures and government is a bear but it was always let's not go all in right right away because we don't want to shock gambling like legislatures let's start it slower and say we don't own them and then eventually we'll acquire the whole thing so that was always the plan and the price points were kind of mapped out and the thought from Penn is if Dave and Erica are creating all this great content we can integrate our sports book in there and now we just have a much cheaper way to get a lot more customers as gambling becomes legal all throughout America correct yes their basic bet and they had no national brand so in that sense they're the perfect fit like they owned all these scattered casinos throughout the country most of them people probably haven't heard of unless you live in that area but what that did do is it gave them licenses for the sports gambling so it's like what brand are they gonna launch with they didn't have one so in that we were the perfect fit and the launch is actually very successful in terms of you know we were up 15% or so in Pennsylvania other states pretty good launches but super competitive but yeah that was the theory behind so what what happened what then the deal kind of turned upside down pretty quickly right yeah I would say quickly because I thought we were kind of moving and grooving for a while our model was essentially we're not gonna pay for advertising like where the advertising vehicle so the people that space are spending hundreds of millions of dollars and they're losing hundreds of millions of dollars in the market shares it's you mean the cut the gambling companies correct dragons fan yeah MGM Caesars hundreds of millions hundreds of millions we're spending none they bought us so we're getting smashed in that regard but we're still kind of holding our market share which I thought was pretty strong our tech wasn't great and I think we knew that they bought a company the score for two billion I think they spent a lot of money on the score for the tech and it took a while for that to come out we didn't control it I was under the impression for the past football season we didn't promote that heart like you kind of waited because we're waiting for the new tech and then by the time the new tech came out they formed the deal with ESPN and we were done so did they step in and tell you how to run the company during that time were they kind of active and changing stuff or did they kind of leave you alone as well I think they were a headache for Erica in the sense of like we had to report now to a public company and and there was maybe more emphasis on the bottom line I didn't get affected by it outside of like of a scandal hit in their public company but they were they were pretty they were pretty lenient again there were things that came up in that relationship like that I don't think anybody could protect I still think we could do a very good we're very good at promoting gambling and and for pennies on the dollar consider can pair to what other companies do you yes they did an ESPN deal without your knowledge or were they did they tell you hey we got this this inbound from ESPN and we're trying to figure out what to do with it they did the ESPN deal without without me being involved mm-hmm yeah you find out on the back end of that correct and so how did you structure this deal to then get it out because it seems I mean that press was even more incredible than the press on the way in because it's like Portnoy just executed a really sick deal it looked like yeah I think there's was just a basic feeling from Penn and us that the the Barstool ESPN worlds are different they were gonna partner with ESPN they tried with us and I think the biggest the hiccup with me and my persona and what people feel about me it's one thing what is your persona and what do people feel about you depends who you ask some people love me and they'll be like this guy should run for president and some people think I'm the devil so depends what article you read but you know all the things that uh you know what what do they look like that person and who hates you what do they look like I well I'd say a rational person likes me and a crazy person doesn't like me but that's my own I feel the same way yeah I mean I think if you're going stereotypical is you're gonna say the right generally likes me in the left extreme left generally doesn't I think that the moderates on both sides generally like me but you know my core beliefs generally tend and people who follow me for a long time know this tend to line up with the left more than it does with the right but the hate I get comes from the left not the right you're a man without a home yeah it's an interesting kind of philosophy they have there but I will say if you say something that goes contrary to either side they'll equally jump down your throat and be like ah forget everything we've said about him like I remember I said it's pro-choice once and and I mean the right wanted to slip my cut my tongue out of my mouth I mean they were coming from people who had for ten years been like we love this guy we love this guy we love this guy disagreed on one point now like we hate this guy we hate this guy we hate this guy so uh both I guess I'm a man without a home is a fair way to put it but Dave at the end of the day it's like you speak your mind and people appreciate someone who speaks their mind and speaks their truth yeah or you speak the agenda and if you speak the agenda they say we like you and if you don't speak the agenda we don't like you yeah and it varies from if you cannot speak the agenda and they don't like you but if you get back on agenda on the next thing they like you again they don't they don't stay too firm on on it's just what you said last is basically what it is and I've always said I the biggest issue I have a lot of things I don't want to know what somebody thinks on an issue by their political affiliation like and I think 95% of the time you hear political people speak you already know what they're gonna say based on their affiliation which is sad and stinks hundred percent the flip side of that there's more people I know that there's far more people who think like I do and I feel like that's the norm but a normal person also doesn't want to get in screaming matches about politics and yeah total craziness totally and on any given topic or policy you got a point of view but if you don't conform to all the topics and policies that the agenda is defined to be by that party then you don't fit and you're ousted anyway you can't be an independent thinker today yeah do you think wild and we talked about this a lot because we just did our all-in summit this week and this this was a repeated theme with all the people we had we had Kirsten cinema she was a senator from Arizona you know she she got kind of ousted from the Democratic Party for speaking her mind and not kind of conforming to what the Democrats were telling her to do we have Barry Weiss who left the New York Times she was an editor at the New York Times and she didn't want to conform to their agenda and she started her own publication called the free press so we this was repeated a lot some of the academics we had were similarly ousted from from their communities anytime you don't speak the agenda and you speak your mind you kind of get ousted and then you're on the outskirts and you kind of have to start afresh do you think that this is a new phenomenon in America or do you think this has always been the case and we're just all kind of waking up to it because we're you know in your case you're more kind of celebrity now you're more well-known and this is becoming more of an issue for you has this always been how things have been I would guess it has been this way far far more than I realized of I think the internet certainly changes a lot of things because people have more voice and more access to information but I bet it's been like this a lot I mean I grew up in a house where like the New York Times is gospel and my dad hates Trump like my dad hates him hates him hates him my mom hates him hates him hates him and then I came under attacks from like the New York Times and that was confusing for like my dad it's like he's seen things that he's like I don't understand how this is happening and I'm showing him document stuff but yeah I probably think it has been this way because it's about power really and power is always something throughout history that people go pretty far to control maintain so I would guess this has been going on for a long time we interviewed Trump you did as well what was that experience like what did you think about him before going into it what did you think after and then when you shared it with your parents what did that do to your relationship with your parents or their thoughts about him yeah my so I was when Trump ran the first time I was like I'm Trump because I think politics are so broken and I think he's somebody who can just kind of like make a mockery of it and break politics I said you needed a torpedo yes now I didn't think I was gonna win the presidency I was stunned I was nervous when I went to interview him to be honest because he asked me I had like 24 hours notice he was still sitting president I don't do interviews so I was nervous when I went in my thought on him was well I thought it was funny and interesting but he gets if you if someone is interviewing me and I think they hate my guts and I think no matter what this interview comes out I could have the cure for cancer and they'd be like no you don't or I give you a dollar and they want a hundred if I just think it's no matter what happens they're gonna try to crucify me I would probably be like an arrogant head in that interview he when he realized that I was not trying to like gotcha or anything he was affable open and normal I think that's what happens with him quite a bit it's like he senses instantly it's not hard to tell who's coming first throat who's gonna be fair who's on his side and that changes his demeanor you know I've done a decent amount of research I feel like on Trump people everyone he's lying and this and that like that's what the left always says he's a liar that's a lie that's a lie and I read an article just like last week it was from Time magazine is like top 10 lies he's told and most of the lies tend to be what I would say are exaggerations like he talks how he would if he was on barstool like I'm gonna build like a hundred he said he's gonna build a thousand feet of wall and he built like 300 feet or they're all like they're not they're great like even how he talks in the debate you know like they're eating the pets and he's just not presidential and then those things get taken and there he's a liar does this but they're not what I would say egregious lies most of them they're quite clear exaggerations and he doesn't talk like a president and whether that helps or hurts him down the road I just think he's he's a not presidential president I said during the primaries I would I would have voted for Nikki Haley I'll vote for Trump in the presidency because I want the country to get along I don't know if they can with him because it's not his fault necessarily to me but they just people just he's broken people's brains they're like they're just broken it's the you see people it's like they're not making any sense the things they jump on like it there's no there's nothing he can say yeah I'll make him that'll make him say what do you think what do you think happens if Kamala wins it's probably more of the same you know I I think that what the Democrats have done is far worse than really anything Trump has done like in terms of not allowing a primary to me that's crazy like I'm somebody who if I liked a candidate and the Democrat Democrat side I could have potentially voted for that person like to not give people a choice and they really still haven't figured out well was he not prepared like is he not mentally aware can he not run is he too old he just thought he was gonna lose the the theorem you just thought he was gonna lose it's not a real answer he ran like you have to then let other people run and if he's not mentally there which I don't think he is Kamala has known that like and she just lied about it forever and then they kick him out so there's so many problems I have with the way she never got a vote like I that I don't know you can say whatever you want about Trump he won the Republican nomination by landslide fair and square and Kamala did not so to me that's a major major issue some of her past statements for me are just like nutty and I don't like what's happened in a lot of Democratic states so I would vote like I hope if she's elected it like California and New York those don't become what happens the United States I don't know that it will I don't know that that much can change is it hard to build a company of young creative people in New York that abide by the culture that you want or do you find yourself pushing up against all kinds of things that you're just like what are these people asking for I don't get it no because we hire I think the hardest thing is just cost of living and taxes and things like that for our employees to live in New York City it's extremely expensive we wouldn't run into the people who think in our proper employees for us they're there and by the way we have across Barstow we have super liberal conservative we have it all and they clash internally like how normal humans would but it's really the cost of living like in taxes and you know it's just really really hard for a young person you know you could pay him 200 grand a year and that is barely enough for someone to live in Manhattan okay well talk about that for a second you know a lot of the undercurrent of why people are angry is that there's just really exaggerated wealth inequality right there's folks like us that have sort of been lucky good whatever you want to call it on the right side of doing well and then there's all those other people with the potential to do well but they're constrained somehow and it's just getting harder and harder you have sympathy for that argument do you have any sense of like what should be done to fix that I do and it's such a hard thing to answer because I do but I also think at times it's a crutch like so where is that fine balance and I guess the way I've thought about it as an overall philosophy is we should be looking forward not backward and there feels like there's a whole lot of how do we fix backwards but that's not necessarily gonna really help forward if that makes sense like I mean California going back and they're looking at like reparations and things like it's you hear it's like well how are they gonna do that we already have like crazy inflation and now you're saying you want to give everybody like african-americans who fit the criteria is like millions of dollars each is that where what from where like where is where is all this coming from so it's moving forward and at what point I think a fair question is at what point is like all right well this isn't working like we if you're just consistently going back you're not gonna go forward that's kind of how like if you pay a person at bars tool 200 K I'm just picking that number I'm not saying you do or not and they can't really make ends meet in New York City and they say Dave I got to quit I got to move to a cheaper city or whatever after enough people say that do you pay that person 250 or do you think you have to move the company do you think you need to change the laws of the city like what happens when you're running this business now and that inequality issue is confronted every day in your employee base what do you do yeah for me on a personal basis a lot of it we're sort of a talent company so if I can't lose this person I'll up the ante and pay to keep them if we can afford to move on without them we'll move on without them so it's a but it's a case by case in a tough tough issue yeah Dave I just want to go back a second you ended up buying the company back for a dollar one question I had was how is it $1 and not 20 million dollars and I want to talk a little bit about this idea of founder mode which I don't know if you've heard this term but it was kind of brought up in Silicon Valley a week or two ago and it's cocaine it's cocaine we made a whole thing about it I don't know if you like founder mode or not yeah but I'm not coca-cola coffee guy well I guess how is it a dollar how was it sounds like a great deal how did you negotiate that and is it a doll or is there is there a back-end deal or something that we're that we're missing that no no yeah no I think what it the thought was we had a lot of headaches with state legislatures gambling there was a like the Massachusetts gambling lady hated my guts other people did I think for Penn to move forward they kind of had to disassociate this with the bet they made and quickly yeah and quickly and let's end on very good terms barstool myself I think that's where it came from I don't think that I don't think we were like a critical part but did you propose the terms did you propose that structure it was mutual it was it was a mutual like understanding but a dollar seems like that's a very stark number was it burning money at the time well you have to put something I think if you're gonna give me the company back like if you could do zero I think they could do zero yeah the company was losing money oh I see and so do you have to put money in yourself no okay and so you took the business over and I want to play this clip Nick can you pull the clip up this should be interesting I had a sales meeting today I think I think I let him I let him know he's back I let him know I was here crack some skulls I think crack skulls but it's like you their comp plan was to me they should be making more money on their comp plan less base salary you know a lot of people may not make it this is gonna get grimy again I will yell at you I may forget about it five seconds later if you can't handle that don't be here but I'm sick of the excuses and honestly our comp plan was ass backwards so salespeople I want people up there like a bunch of Gordon Gekko looking motherfuckers that's good you step in and you know this is what people in Silicon Valley might call founder mode you're just like cracking skulls you're seeing all this you're like we're gonna right-size the the organization we're gonna get the ship headed in the right direction we're gonna restructure comp I guess how did things drift you know during that time yeah they drifted we're a big public company that was using us as a marketing machine really to drive drive consumers the casino maybe weren't as concerned about the bottom line you know I wasn't involved in really a lot of stuff but it was growth mode growth mode growth mode not bottom line mode not bottom line mode which was I think what they wanted from us and that was no longer going to be the case and it isn't case was this like Elon take it over Twitter and he kind of goes in he's like what the heck is going on here we gotta yeah yeah from what I heard or saw stories of that yes I think very similar where and again this is always there's one thing that I clash at the left there seems to be like oh we shouldn't have to work hard culture like yo I have to work like 10 hours a day or you get what you work for so we're a great place to work people kill to work for Barstool there's not and and we're always fine that like I had a sales job grass is always greener on the other side but you know we do sports entertainment it's a great spot to work and if you work hard you get rewarded but there is sort of that I don't know the shaming of success earning whatever you want to call it I do feel like exist in our in our country a little bit and I don't know where that came from but that's the thing that hurts me the most I think the I've said this before but the prosperity that we enjoy as a country is because of the productivity that's arisen from entrepreneurship and entrepreneurship means everyone has a chance to build something and be successful in this country and if you are you deserve that success and we should be rewarding that success with accolades not with disdain yeah it's like it's a it's a slur like I love the word bill it's a someone could call me a billionaire it's I would take that and happily be like well you know I've said that now that's one thing I'm always I won't apologize for making money having money spending money I had none of it like that's what I worked my ass off for and it is wildly irritating as somebody who you know Bill Barstow I didn't take a vacation day for ten years like and literally I had a hump in my neck because I was like at my computer all day to then be told I have to coddle somebody else who works for me is infuriating and that's good the bigger you get like if I didn't have to have HR or any of that I know you can't go over I want it like I want to be able to and the bigger you get the less you can do that because you don't know who you're talking to and what type of issue that may lead to yeah do you like the business building aspect I mean do you like building sales comp plans and looking at the finances and figuring out the right next step strategically or do you like being on camera and creating content and creatives yeah like how much of a business guy are you are you like I think I'm underestimate a little in business side there's certain aspects I like certain aspects I hate like in our world I hate negotiating the talent contracts like if you could have told me Dave don't like what's something you're gonna hate it's the talent business where inherently we're trying to find new stars build them up just so they can turn around hire an agent negotiate us and then leave so it's like this I wish it was a product that I owned in in the more we do that that is a guy I hate it and you know we're using everything and you it happens that Alex McAfee we make millionaires out of people but that's our business so I hate hate hate that but the business side of it outside of the talent and what's the next steps I enjoy how successful has it been to launch these products off of Barcelona so you know you've launched a whole line of stuff what's working and what's not working what have you learned from that yeah what I've learned about our audience and this probably holds true for a lot it doesn't matter what I say or our influences the product it's like if if the products good did they do well like pink Whitney is a drink that kills it for us we are Dan big cat has a coffee now I did a what excuse me a one bite frozen pizza it was the biggest frozen launch Walmart ever had it's gone it's basically disappeared because it wasn't very good and that's a huge missed opportunity probably because I got everybody to eat it and we had like a million and not even our crowd our crowds on a Walmart crowd because a lot of you're saying the products are the actual product is bad it tasted bad how did that happen how did it taste bad yeah cuz I don't know what the hell I was doing we had a third party and and I just didn't understand the frozen pizza market I thought we had made it as good as you could make it and that just wasn't the case so it was a bad product I knew was bad so after it launched it pretty much disappeared I mean still occasionally there so it really is product high noon which I don't own but I'm heavily involved in it's an unbelievable product it's just a spectacular drink it's the number one Vodka on the market so we have this this megaphone of people who trust us and we'll give anything a shot but if the products no good it ain't gonna work and if products good it'll work you know years ago Starbucks set up a corporate strategy they Howard realized that every time they put a new product on the shelf right when you check out you know there at the register yep it would sell like crazy but then it would also go sell like crazy and Walmart and Target and Kroger's all over the country everywhere else and they were making brands with their platform they realized you know we've got a platform so they started to kind of do these deals where in order to put your brand your product on the shelf at checkout they had to get equity in the business is that a model you've kind of played with where you can leverage the platform instead of charging people add dollars you basically align with brands that you love take a piece of those brands and then really truly partner up with them and help them be successful and participate in that upside with them yes yep we've done that we're starting to do that a lot more now that I've got the company back because when it wasn't my company I I didn't care as much because it's like what are we getting so I'm trying to be much more like helpful to our talent because not only are they happy but it helps me keep them so we're doing a lot more deals now how you just suggest what's the what's the day in the life of Dave Portnoy are you like on zooms all day talking to your teams about various things or when do you have time to make the content like how do you yeah I was your day structure it really varies it can vary day to day I have my set like content things that I'm doing whether it's pizza BFF I may do a podcast like this and then business stuff but I'm not working like how I was working when I started it we have good people at high levels who I trust and are doing like whether it's a CFO whether it's sales I'm still in the loop on how everything's going but I'm not as involved in the day at each day I mean like would you say your style is like you observe and then if you feel or sense it's going off track you just jump in and just 100% yeah that's 100% what I would do yeah cuz like yes I was much more involved the beginning I don't want to be that involved as like I want kind of live my life a little bit so yes that's I would say that's exactly how I do it let's go back to your roots for a second because I'm I'm really curious about this do you think that sports gambling has been good for America so far based on how it's been launched how young men use it yeah I mean I'd say it's new I wouldn't say it's good or bad I mean everyone's doing it I'm sure there's horror stories just like anything any vice of people be like oh I lost money or whatever but from my world I was doing it my whole life so I was doing it was not legal I'm also a firm believer and let an adult be an adult like if they want to gamble they do it but I wouldn't say it's been it's probably created a bunch of business like because the industry is spending so much and that trickles down in so many different areas so gambling is going to happen there's certain things that I'm pretty things that have happened since the dawn of man gambling is one of them it is going to happen so you might as well legalize it and make money off of it rather than have it be underground bookies and things like that you talk a lot about WNB right now but are there sports leagues that you think are just yesterday's news a little bit boring not really well baseball slow they're also like in some bizarre world the last to embrace like highlights in the internet where the NBA was always the leader in forefront I think it shows you know football isn't it's the same same sports basically I think baseball is the core for this lagging do you think do sports franchise values go up as legalization happens and then do sports franchise values go down and you know is that a big driver do you think for well the NFL is talking about letting private equity right invest yeah last month yeah so I can't that that to me can only make franchises skyrocket and I don't think the bottom line always matters with sports like making money losing money there's not many of them and it's the biggest toy anybody really on earth can have right like what is better and it does for some people doesn't matter how much money you have you may still not be able to get it so I can't see any world in which that doesn't continue to increase when this the demand far outweighs supply do you think that there's a world where somebody figures out a way for the players to own a piece of these teams as well like you know you talked about you started barstool your four main guys whether that was written down or not you're giving them equity in the same way if you think about the equity that you know MJ created in the league or LeBron and Steph and KD have created in the league they capture it in salary but they don't capture it in equity how do you think about that it's a tough question because by the time you would say like an MJ or a LeBron maybe LeBron a little different but by the time they've risen to the level of all this guy knee is worth the equity like if you rewound Jordan's career from day one and you have the choice like we can have them on the polls or whatever clearly the equity is probably worth it but by the time he establishes that you're depending on almost which I find almost never happens in business rare like retroactive goodwill good faith like okay you did so much here's some equity I don't I haven't found many people do that no I think for the NBA they'll just they'll probably find a way for LeBron to get the Vegas franchise that's kind of his his reward maybe you know yeah but then there's a bunch of these other guys that are when you say LeBron do you mean like the Fenway sports group because he's that like they buy teams he's part of that I think I think it's probably it's probably Fenway maybe but I think that they want him on the masthead as a direct owner yeah I suspect if I had to guess I mean Jordan had minority in the Wizards do you still gamble for fun or do you still gamble mostly let me let me tell you Dave's bets this year because I had him pulled up you bet I'm high one to your yeah tell us it so 2.1 million on on the Huskies 1.3 million on those are winnings yeah yeah on the Masters on Scotty 1.1 million on the Celtics maybe a finals million dollars on Michigan over Alabama and the Rose Bowl half a million on the Chiefs to win the Super Bowl half a million on Washington over Texas and the Sugar Bowl you're gambling yes so to clarify the only the early ones that I bet a million on Michigan to win the Rose Bowl that's just a million to win a million I went to Michigan I went to the game it's like this is gonna be my big bet most of the others have been like future so like the not nearly the winnings have been big because I've been red-hot I've gambled my whole life I love gambling people we have a big partnership with Draftkings people are always like Oh Draftkings gives them the money or pen no it's my own money and yeah it's it's a passion of mine I love doing I bet on a horse racing sports and I enjoy it the worst thing about gambling in my opinion is we have to pay taxes on the winnings and then we can't carry over the losses the great news which may be different I generally don't have to worry about that because I generally lose so I'm never like worried this year this year will be year one of quite a long life that I've won in it doesn't look like I'm going that way but that is crap it's like Kamala like unrealized unrealized gains I like you get taxed on something you never had exactly is she's still doing that by the way is that like a real thing she walked it back a little she walked it back yeah she said oh no and then she also walked back the capital gains tax from 40% down to 28 because the backlash she got when she said hey I support the Biden proposal for tax reform there was so much backlash she started to lose a lot of big donors and they were like okay you know here's the compromise and that's where they ended up so what ultimately happens if she gets elected it's anyone's guess you know all these guys are kind of tacking to get elected and no one knows what their actual policy will end up being when they're in office for all right folks so you know we don't know do you gamble in any other way craps dice yes that's what I was gonna ask you ever blackjack poker yeah or stocks you know like you did stocks for a while didn't you on I love stocks like stocks is to me is better than sports gambling because you rarely like unless a company just goes poof you're not like out like if you have patience for the most part you can bounce back so yeah I have money in the stock market I'll play like at a casino but it doesn't do it for me I'm delusional like I think I know what's gonna happen in sports like I'm like oh I know the Patriots are playing or like if I'm playing blackjack like I know the rules but I also know I have no control over what I don't count cards I like poker but I'm no expert at it and I don't play that often it doesn't say you're not a quant guy you're not an analytical guy it's doing nothing or anything like no no no no no if I could go back at one skill I'd love to like be able to like to have an algorithm for the stock market like how all the people make all their money where just hit like but I don't have that brain you did a lot of it during kovat but then that content kind of wound down yeah well the stock market during coat so we did the pen deal like right before kovat so we're gearing up to do all the sports gambling content and sports went away and I'm alright well the stock market is still going it's kind of the same thing so I started doing that without much knowledge live streaming and people loved it the swings in the stock market during kovat bananas yes it was I mean huge like I loved it but that's not happening so to do the daily I was day trading stocks aren't moving nearly unless it's like in earnings they're not moving like they were so it's it's boring yeah can you tell us about the Caitlin Clark Angel Reese WNBA controversy you have some strong opinions on that you have strong opinions on that I mean I so I love Caitlin Clark this I mean do you think do you think it's Larry magic all over again we'll see how Angel she had a great rookie year had a great rookie year yeah Angel was not on the same but I don't think not if you love college basketball women's college basketball sure you knew Angel Reese was I did not know who Angel Reese was until she was doing this thing to Caitlin Clark in this and follow who is this whereas magic and bird everybody knew those two going in Angel and this isn't this will sound disrespectful but it's a fact people would not the majority of people would not know who she was if it wasn't for her going at Caitlin Clark in becoming her rival by really trash-talking her and that anybody in the media who says it's anything other than Angel Reese thrusting herself into this conversation which by the way business-wise brilliant for her because she's got shoe deals she was Shaq she's got all this stuff but people would not know who she was if Caitlin Clark is everybody every metric like a unicorn yeah yeah exactly so and she put herself in the same conversation with it and she's had a great rookie season but bird magic no one knew she I mean I didn't know I just saw Caitlin play in college and she was doing things I just never seen a woman doing best pulling up from the logo pal like who the hell is this and I just started watching her and I didn't even during the game with um the LSU when and she did all the theatrical I didn't notice angel during the game like I really I bet on Iowa I was mad and then I don't know if I get credit or or disapprove however you want to put it I tweeted and this went super viral and started like a race war I was so mad when they lost this game I tweeted Angel Reese is a classless piece of shit it's the first time I talked about her and it was right after she was taunting her and everyone's like you only said that because he's black it's like it had nothing to do it it was I bet on Caitlin I was pissed it didn't matter who it was people always ignore that with me some of my most fiercest enemies Roger Goodell like I and I had to pull up like Brooks Koepka I'm like all these people I'd call classless pieces of shit it's how I talk but the race thing from that moment really took off between these two I wouldn't say it's bird magic I think it's disrespectful to how different because those are two of the greatest of all time two of the greatest of all time and angels a great rebound and to Caitlin's credit I think that she has completely uplifted the WNBA to a level that I don't think anybody expect it's insane the number one game on NBA TV has been a WNBA game is beating the NBA I remember when you know we had a moment where Steph had all these ankle injuries this was like in that first era with Monte Allison and there was a lot of pressure to trade step and yeah just came back and all of a sudden he was lights out right and then what you saw was every young kid wearing his jersey because it's much easier to look at step and say I could be like Steph right not nearly as tall as everybody else not nearly as huge as everybody else and you're starting to see the same thing with Caitlin where all these kids are like I can shoot like her that's where you become transcendent because you have this approach that seems like well I could do this too it's that thing that just makes you a huge star I said when Nike did the deal with her I thought it was the most the biggest steal like in the history of sports marketing like it was 10 million and then you look at like Devin Booker's like 30 million a year there's no person on the planet who can tell me Devin Booker's more marketable than Caitlin Clark it's like Caitlin Clark is up there with anybody she's she's hit something that that you rarely whether it's a tiger a Serena somebody who is just redefining the sport and it's not the color of her skin that I that was what drove me nuts with this because the WNBA is filled with white superstars people are at Diana Taurasi so the Sabrina I okay there's a ton of Inesco yeah Inesco and the woman from UConn who's at the top top and superb there's ton she plays different if you watch the game she does not play how anybody's seen a woman play that's it that and everyone made it into all these others issue it's she plays different you haven't seen it before Dave let me ask you a question you've remained steadfast in speaking your mind speaking your truth telling your opinions it's gotten you a lot of heat over the years you got a lot of people writing articles negatively about you chasing down personal stories about you all this sort of stuff you're still here and there was a period of time for a couple years where everyone talked about canceled culture and someone does something that is inappropriate or is a micro aggression using a big platform and they should be canceled and everyone rallies behind and puts this person out they're done but you haven't been canceled why is that and do you think that we're kind of post cancel culture in America was that a moment that's come and gone or do you think we're still kind of fighting the fight for free speech in America and the ability to speak one's mind and speak one's voice without being deep platformed and shut down yeah I don't think it's totally gone I think I'm here just it Barstool's been around for a long time so people really do know me like the fans or people have read Barstool for 20 years have stuck by me and how and and that's been important like if you're on someone else's platform it's a lot easier to platform them because you have advertisers and somebody above who don't want to deal with the headache or anything like that so I I've been like even when Penn was here and there are people above me theoretically what choice did they have to have my back because it's it's well if you don't have my back I still have this megaphone I'm just gonna be like guess what these guys don't have my back and then poof everything they've done so I've had that luxury of being able to speak directly and not having to worry where if you're just on a different network they can pull the plug a lot easier and I'm kind of an open book so it's I I think what has worked in my favor I've never been worried well if I speak out or defend myself what's gonna come out next or is there someone lurking in the closets I guess I've never care I everything is out there I there's I've told the truth and that's allowed me to be pretty comfortable like the heavy accusations like business insider when like sexual misconduct type stuff like all garbage and when I say point there wasn't point zero zero one there was no truth to any of the stuff that happened I had all the facts and so when this thing hit like I just it made me look kind of stupid or embarrassed because nobody wants like personal text but I had that stuff out there like it was out there hours after it's like here it is here's everything that disproves it not everyone does that you think people are just sick and tired of being told what to think and who to follow and who's right and who's wrong and they want to kind of make up their own minds and not kind of get behind this whole cancel culture organizational system anymore you think 100% I know my biggest issue is I don't know what to believe I don't believe anything like and that's kind of unfortunate like you you just hear so many things and it's a lot of times even hard to figure out where the truth is like you try to dig into it especially in politics like but that's probably good answer example I hear so many things on both sides and then when you really try to dig down and be like is this real is this fake it's it's hard to find the root of the truth and that is actually kind of scary I think that's why that's why freedom of speech matters now more than ever because we got to have more voices not fewer so that people can ultimately find the truth themselves have you been able to convince your dad that maybe the New York Times isn't always telling the truth no I haven't which is scary he doesn't have an answer for it with me does but like he still truly believes he's one of those guys where there's nothing Trump could do nothing nothing like he's bad and if he gives the greatest answer greatest thing whatever it doesn't matter Trump's bad I mean you can give well what about the other side he doesn't care so no he's skewed he he's somebody who's gonna watch mainstream media and pretty much believe everything they say maybe a little bit he's changed but and I think there's a lot of people like well before we wrap what's the what's the future for Barstool Dave what are you what are you gonna do with the business over time it's just a business you now own forever you're gonna run it make a profit live off of it I mean what's your your long yeah I mean that that kind of nailed it I in this may sound not like a true founder I sometimes get this but I want Barstool to be a place where we break even or make money so I'm not overly stressed and pulling my hair out and people enjoy coming to work and they have a good job that like I've said and I said to our employees when I took it's like I've made my money I I've never gonna become like a billionaire off Barstool and someone pays it so I'm happy I'm comfortable and I want our employees to have a place there that they know a job is there and you know they don't hate going to work that's kind of and we'll look for opportunities and try to continue to grow but I'm not maniacal how do we get to the next step yeah that's awesome great Dave thanks for being with us this has been an awesome chat I really enjoyed it, thanks man, take care.

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