Well, hi, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Everyday Educator. Today I have someone very special in, she's not in the studio, but on the show with me, Babs from the MathMap team. And we were just talking about the fact that I'm really excited she's here because she and I both don't consider ourselves to be math experts, but we're about to have a whole conversation with you about math and what we can do with our children over the summer to encourage them in their mathematic exploration.

And I think while it's great to hear from the experts, it's also really great to hear from just normal moms, just like you who are in the thick of it, trying to figure it out and doing their best and also to learn what has been successful in the past.

So without any further ado, Babs, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm excited. I'm excited too. This is going to be fun. So for people who don't know you, maybe haven't heard any episodes with you, can you just introduce yourself, your context and kind of your homeschooling background?

So a couple of years ago, I think it was probably six or seven years ago, I was asked to go to some kind of introduction to math. Actually, they were piloting a curriculum. I don't think I was told it was math. And so I was like, Oh, sure, I'll be in the pilot.

And when I got there, I found out it was math. So I was like, Oh, man, I'm gonna pilot a math curriculum. And so I was a little nervous. But what I found out is that I am a math person. And I think the language that we use is, yes, we're not a math expert.

But I can be an anything person, I can be a Latin person, I can be a math person, I just have to want to do it. And I have to, you know, rely on the Holy Spirit, right to help and really just encourage me as I keep going. Bring things to light.

I remember asking lots of times for the help of the Holy Spirit, as I was working through some things. And so, so fast forward, so I got to work on the math map pilot for a couple of years. And then I became a curriculum assistant with the math map.

So for somebody who did not make A's and B's in math and high school or college, magically, I get to work on the math map team. And I always I say that I've said this over and over again, I've learned more in the last six years than I ever learned when I was in school.

And it's really obviously, when you're an adult, right, you want to learn more than when you're a kid. But I think just learning the classical using the classical tools has really helped me make it approachable. And I can learn it, I now get to be invited into the conversation, whereas I don't necessarily know that I was invited into the conversation before.

And so it kind of, you know, just kind of brings that brings that to light. I've been homeschooling, I feel like forever, I just graduated one son last year, and I have a senior upcoming this year. So I'm kind of towards the end of that journey. So it's a different place to be.

But it's a good time of reflection. And I think to kind of pour into other moms, to show them, hey, you're not gonna mess your kid up. Right? My kid is great. He went to community college. And apparently, they think he's the smartest thing ever. And I think it's because a lot of those kids don't know how to write papers.

And that's a lot of what we did in CC was write a lot of papers, give a lot of speeches. And so I guess it's just, it's a good time now to just pour into other moms and show them that we can do it, that we have the capacity to do it, especially with the Lord's help, and with the help of our community, you know, that we can be successful.

So I love that. You said a couple of things, honestly, Babs, that I'd love for you to expand on, even before we get into this specific math conversation. Two things. One, you said, you know, I don't think I'd ever been invited into the conversation. And I think that idea of, of a way of educating where you're inviting your students into the conversation is groundbreaking.

I mean, that is a completely different way to look at educating. Will you speak to that? And then also the fact that you invited the Holy Spirit into the conversation? Because it's kind of like you're having this two way conversation, right? I think, you know, I guess because I felt like I wasn't a good calculator, you know, I wasn't a fast calculator.

I didn't always understand a lot of the big picture ideas in, even in geometry and algebra. So I felt like I wasn't invited into that conversation to keep learning. And I feel like that's what CC has done for me is, hey, we want to invite you in the conversation.

We don't care about your math background. We don't care if you ever took an advanced math class. We want to invite all parents into the conversation. Because if we're invited in, now we can invite our student, right? And so there are students that feel like, I just can't do this math.

You can, right? You can. And so we want to model to our students, I can do it. And how old am I? 49. And I can do it. So you at 16, 15, 14, whatever age they are, they can do it too. So the Holy Spirit thing, I just have to share this with you.

So we will probably talk about this a little bit with a different topic. But so this past semester, I took a class through Southeastern, the master's program. And I was trying to decide, you know, what major I wanted. And so I was just playing around with different classes. So I took elementary number theory.

There's nothing elementary about it. Okay. It was very hard. It was very hard. And what I found myself doing was crying a lot and also praying a lot. Like I would get to a topic and I just wouldn't understand it. And I would, I would pray, Lord, I know you can help me do this.

I know you can help me at least understand enough, you know, to get the gist of this problem, to complete this assignment. And a lot of times it would take me leaving, you know, like walking away, you know, how we get to that breaking point sometimes, and we just have to take a break.

And then coming back to it, you know, after spending some time with the Lord. And eventually I would get it. Now it might take me a day or two, or maybe even a week, but I would eventually get it. And so I feel like if I can take a master's level math class with the help of the Holy Spirit, then I can do anything now.

I mean, it really was one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life. I know that sounds silly, but it really was one of the hardest things I've ever done because I, I couldn't see the end result. Like I didn't know, well, at the end of this, I can write a paper, right?

I couldn't see that. It was just, I was understanding this number theory. So definitely inviting the Holy Spirit. I have to do that all day long. You know, even if you go to Walmart, you should invite the Holy Spirit to come with you. But for sure, when you're teaching your kids, because not only can the Holy Spirit stir in you and give you the right word to say, but now they can stir in the heart of your child, you know, as you're, you're teaching them as well.

So. It's so true. I love that you shared that story. Um, something else that we mentioned before we press record, you guys is just the fact that I also was a person who, who just had the way I think of it. And I'm not sure if this is actually the truth, but this is where we landed is that I had some neurological blocks.

Like there were just things in my brain, the figurative speech about math where I, I just had a block and I needed the time. Like I actually needed my brain to grow and shift and change so that I could wrap my mind around certain concepts when it came to math.

And because I was homeschooled through high school and had the benefit of not being the guinea pig child, my mother recognized that fairly quickly. So when I was between the ages of like 13 and 15, she said, you know what? We've done algebra too, so many times, you know, geometry was nothing for me.

I could have done it in my sleep. I still can tell you, yes, that wall is about this, this big. And it's this shape. I just, that's how my brain worked. But when it came time to make it figurative, I couldn't get there for a long time. And then when I went to college, I needed to get there for the major that I had.

And so I was like you begging the Lord to enlighten me. And the thing that I want everyone to hear in both of our stories is that he did, you know, like it's, it's not as though math is this topic where you can't invite him in. So while we have this conversation about math and I know everyone tends to have mixed feelings, um, let's teach our kids to do that, to, to really have that conversation with the Lord.

Because if we really do believe that the purpose of education is to know God and to make him known, then he should be in the conversation. Yes. And that's, that's something too, to, you know, a lot of people are like, why do I even care? Like, why do I, why should I make my kid like study all these things?

And there's a couple of reasons, but you kind of hit on one of them is I can learn more about God by studying math. And it's probably things that I'm not going to discover anywhere else. You know, like if you think about like Fibonacci numbers, okay, God created this pattern that he put in a sunflower or a shell or a pine cone for, for my enjoyment, right?

For me to love it and to see its beauty. And so if I don't study and know that the, the, the way that was created was by God's math pattern, why I can learn one more thing about the Lord by studying that particular topic. So that's one thing is that we can learn more about the Lord by studying this math topic.

And another thing too, is how to do hard things. Yeah. I mean, we all know in CC, we're training our kids to do hard things. Right. And so I feel like, you know, it's really training your brain to think logically, to, to look for patterns. I mean, we can take a lot of the skills that we're learning in mathematics and apply them to so many other things that it's just, you're just transferring that skill to math.

And so I honestly don't feel like you have to love math in order to want your student to succeed in it or want them to, to know about it. I mean, it would probably be helpful for them to see joy while you're teaching them, but also it might be good for them to see you're, you're doing hard things.

Like my boys watching me cry and struggle and pray to get through this class. I mean, as embarrassing as that probably was for me, I'm glad they saw it because I didn't give up. I didn't not take, you know, I did not finish the class. I actually got an A in it.

Hey, you know what I mean? So the fact that they get to see that and we're modeling that for our students, that's just another skill like showing them, Hey, I can do hard things. I can look at something that maybe right might seem really difficult, but breaking it down, looking at the grammar, looking at patterns, it's approachable.

So I think that's another thing too, is, um, you know, there are lots of reasons to do math. Not, not just that I'm going to be a good calculator. I mean, we have computers to calculate, right? And so, you know, yes, it's, it's important for me to know how to, to add a subtract and multiply and divide.

It's definitely important. I mean, I need to know if this person gives me back change, did she give me back the right change? Exactly. And I don't have time to pull out my calculator to figure that out. If something's on sale, right? I need to know if they're going to ring it up correctly, right?

Cause I can figure out percentages. So there's lots of reasons why we need to know those kinds of things. Um, but more importantly, I think is, can we do hard things and what can I learn about God by studying something that I've never studied this deep before? Yeah. And that starts, you know, I love that you and I are having this conversation because your boys are a lot older.

I've got one in utero and one who's three, you know, so I'm like on the opposite end of the spectrum. Um, but that, that literally starts from a young age, you know, when your children are older, you can explain to them the value of doing something difficult when they are younger.

It's more along the lines of modeling, but there are some really practical things that regardless of the age of your student, they're going to glean from focusing on math. And, and some of that is for, for my son, it's like, Hey, I really want you to write these numbers because we're working on your fine motor skills.

And I know what that's going to do for your brain. So if you are resistant to, and he's not, he loves to draw, but if, and when he was resistant to writing, I knew it was because he was struggling with a fine motor. So there were a lot of things that we did exercises that we did games that we play, just stuff.

I had him pick up all over the place to strengthen those little fingers so that when it came time to do the math, that wasn't a hurdle for him. Same thing with like practicing sitting still that might seem so, so unrelated to math, but that patience of doing hard things, that's a skill that you're building your child over time.

And if they don't have that tolerance to be able to wade through and just sit there when they're not interested because they don't understand yet, then they can't get that light bulb moment. But those are, that's a character conversation we're having right now. So yeah. And it's, it starts young.

So I just love that we, I'm seeing what you're seeing from a totally different angle, but the value is the same. So I'm sure that there are people listening who are like, okay, I love what you're saying. Give me some practicals. So let's switch gears for just a few minutes and maybe talk about some of your, your top math activity ideas specifically for children in the summer.

So I think first I would make sure I've taken a break, right? Whenever we're done with community or whatever we're doing with school, make sure I at least take a week or two and take a break because we do need the break as moms. We need the break and as kids, they need the break too.

Right. So making sure we, we have a break. Um, and for, for a lot of our families who are getting ready to use the math map, which is brand new, um, there are lots of things to do in the summer that can get them ready. And one of them as a parent is to download, there's a naturals booklet.

It's for like ages four and five, no five and six. And it's mostly, mostly copy and trace, but for the parent, it gives them an introduction into this brand new curriculum and they can just copy and trace at their will. So what I've been trying to do is print out a booklet, stick it in my giant pocketbook that I carry everywhere.

And if I go to like the doctor's office and I have to wait, instead of scrolling my phone, which I want to do, I put it up and I try to get out my booklet and just copy and trace. And what that does is it, it gives me an overview of the curriculum, but it also gives me, it introduces me to some grammar that either I don't remember from school or I've never seen before because I didn't take that particular higher level math.

And so that's one thing that parents can do. And then if their kids are old enough, they can have their kids join and do the same thing with them because again, it's copying and tracing. So there's not a lot of brain power that has to go through if I'm just tracing a definition or I'm, you know, copying a symbol.

Um, but it's still, I still have the connection. Right. And so I would just, you know, copying and tracing is just a good, a good thing to try. Also flashcards. I love flashcards. Um, not necessarily just the CC ones, but like addition, subtraction, multiplication, division to always keep those things, you know, going on in my mind.

But the new notations flashcards, I love them because it's all those symbols that I don't remember from school. Now they're brought up again in a flashcard way. And if I don't really like the sitting and drilling, I could like hide them around the room and let them go find them.

And as they brought them back to me, they could tell me, you know, what the definition was of whatever the symbol was, you know, you can find little ways to play with them and not necessarily have to be, um, you know, just drilling. But so, so that's another thing.

And then any games, any game that you have in your game closet, you can make it mathematical. So I went through the game closet a while back and I have a hard time getting rid of games. You know, my kids are older, so they probably aren't going to play hi-ho cheerio, but I still have that game.

And, and that game can be mathematical because I have to count how many of those little red cherries to put on my, my little board. And so like battleship, they have to know coordinates, right? Because they have to put those on there. So probably any game you have in your closet, you could figure out a way to make it mathematical and your kids don't even realize they're learning or reviewing anything.

They're just playing a game. And so I like to do stuff like that, that really tells them, like, they don't think they're learning, but they are. And we get to play a game because I love games. I love card games. I love board games. And so if I can get all of my folks at one table, I'm going to get them to play a game.

Yeah. And then a bonus if they're, if they're learning something, right? Exactly. Oh, I love those ideas. And I mean, it's, it's so true that I had never thought of that. The fact that most, I can't think of an exception at this time, pretty much every board game or card game that you can play can be.

That's the easiest. I mean, even, even just like that's number recognition, really. It's like numbers and colors, right? But like checkers, that's like logic. Cause you got to, well, and kind of numbers too, because you have to have so many in a row, but like almost every game is either, you know, you're practicing logic or you're practicing numbers.

And then like reading books, you know, we always want to read to our kids. That's really big for us. But there are books at the library about math stuff. Like there was this one book. See if I can remember. It was something like, how does a dinosaur count to 10?

It was like over and over again, like little things like that. You could just go to the library and just pick out random books about math. But you're, you're reading to your kids. They're hearing the numbers, you know, what was the other one? There was another one about counting.

It might've been a Dr. Seuss. Oh, you know, like the, he was counting all the weird things in the Dr. Seuss. Apples up on top is another one. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, those kinds of, and see, that's still, you know, reading, right? So you're, you're doing two things at one time.

You're reading to your kids or having them read it, but then you're also looking at a math concept. So that's something else you can kind of do in the summer too, is, is reading different math. Yeah, that's great. Well, and what you're making me think of too, Babs, is just the fact that sometimes expanding a child's ability to see the application of math is a fantastic use of your time.

Like I'll take one just right off the top. Although I'm sure there are many more. I love the story of hidden figures. I find it so inspiring to me. I, and I would have told you in high school and into my early twenties. Now I'm in my thirties that I didn't care about math.

That's what I would have told you. But when I learned what these ladies were able to do with their math skills, I said, hang on a second. Actually, I think I want to learn Euler's method. And actually I think I'm very interested in the way, you know, my father's an engineer.

And so I had, I'd always have kind of a concept of what you could do if you did love math with your mathematical knowledge. However, sometimes I think people just need to be, they need to be exposed to a new way that math is, is kind of hitting them in the face in their daily life, you know, or people who they might not expect to be thinking in a mathematical way so that then they, it'll wet their palate and they'll say, okay, well, I do want to know these facts because if I can, if I can get ABC, I can get to D and I really want to be in this D range.

So I'll just, I'll just plow through. So I love what you're saying about that too. And cooking, like cooking is the easiest one, right? Because you have to know your measurements. And I remember there was a foundation song. I'm probably going to mess it up, but it was like eight blue, an ounce equal one cup, you know, all the ones where you're, it's the measurements.

So I remember in the kitchen cooking and singing that song to try to remember how many ounces were in a cup or whatever. And we would be in the grocery store and we would have to get like hot dogs and hamburgers for, or maybe hot dogs and buns for like some kind of church event.

And I would have to count by twelves, like for the buns, how many buns do I need? So I'd get out the 12 song, 12, 24, 30, 30, 40, and sing that. So, I mean, those kinds of things, you don't even know you're doing it. You're just doing it, you know?

So, I mean, yeah, math is like all around us and, and just living. I mean, if you just cooked or you went to the grocery store, you'd be doing math. So, and we talked about, you know, the sale, knowing the sale price or knowing the correct change, which honestly, we really need to check these people who give us change back now, because I don't think all of them know how to give correct change.

That's why they don't count it back. They just put it in your hand and say, here you go. Yes. Yes. So we need to train our kids to know how to say, oh, I don't think you gave me all the right change. Yes, exactly. We could, we could fund a college, college on what you could get back and change if you got the right change.

That's fantastic. And then even just the fact that I was thinking about artists as you were sharing too, that's another place that I think a lot of people don't necessarily expect, although the math map showcases it impeccably, but artists are constantly doing math because God, the whole world he created is mathematical.

This physical world is mathematical and there is balance in good art. High quality art has the most balance. And so if you know your ratios and your brain can think in ratios and then like even decorating, I always loved interior design. That's another thing. I want to rearrange over half the rooms in my house right now, because it has occurred to me that the ratios are off.

And since I know that, you know, now it's, it's bothering. I can't unsee it, but it's, it's a math thing. I want the balance and I know exactly where these thirds need to land and, and that, that brings peace. So having your children really, going back to the math, having your children come at this math conversation from an unconventional way is, is a great thing.

And the summertime is so ripe for this because you do have a little bit more flexibility usually in your schedule. So figure out what they're into. I promise you math is in the middle of it. If they like sports, there's a lot of math involved. If they like cooking, there's math in there.

Legos, Legos. There's lots of, I mean, you could do with Legos, you know, like even just counting, but like building 3d objects or trying to build a 4d object. Cause it was hard for us to imagine what 4d is like building those kinds of weird objects. But Legos are so fun to play with math.

I mean, you could even do like sorting games, you know, where you sort by color or you sort by, I don't know, like functionality, you know, like however many have two, however many have four, you know, that kind of thing. Cause we used to do that when, with, with writing, we were learning how to make an Annie chart.

We would sort Legos or sort something in your kitchen drawer. The same thing with math. You have to sort numbers, right. Put them in because, you know, like if you can't, you can't add or subtract different numbers, you got to make sure they have that like fractions have to have the same denominator.

Right. So you've got to know how to sort or you got to put them in the right format. So, um, yeah, Legos are always fun in my house and I feel like that they're very mathematical. Yeah. That's such a great point. So, and I was trying to think there was another thing I was trying to think, Oh, well, well we do have, um, but we talked about card games too, but just a plain deck of cards, right.

You can have so many games just from a deck of cards. You can practice like adding, you can practice multiplying and dividing me. You can practice algebraic expressions just with a deck of cards. And so it's not that you have to go buy a bunch of stuff over the summer.

You probably have everything in your house, like a board game that's really mathematical or Legos or whatever it is. And you can make it into, you know, a math game. Exactly. And that applies to every age, every range of learning and understanding. It doesn't matter if your child is in the grammar phase or if they are in dialectic or rhetoric, you can do math with the things that you have around you.

Um, I love that you're making me really want to do some math calculations with sports. My, my son is very into baseball right now and I'm atrocious at it and he's phenomenal at it. And I bet you, if I knew a little bit more about like what I was supposed to be doing with my hand or the arc, he keeps trying to explain it to me.

But of course he's serious. He can do it, but he can't articulate it. But he's like, no, you're supposed to do it like this. If I got that, whatever that thing was, I bet it would change my life. And I promise you, it's attached to math. Um, I love this.

Let's talk about, let's talk about breakthroughs and tension. Cause again, some of the reason why we have this stigma against diving into the conversation in math is that it can get emotional and challenging. And you've got a lot years under your belt of homeschooling. Um, can you maybe talk to us about a time when one of your students really was having a, a challenging, a challenging season with math and they had a breakthrough and what, what changed the game for them and how, how you navigated that with them?

Well, I'm trying to think, I think one of the, one of the things that make, that can make students get overwhelmed is maybe the amount of work that's expected by mom or dad. So I was always the one who wanted them to finish the entire page. I did not want them to do odds or evens.

I wanted them to do it all because I was afraid that if I didn't do odds or evens, they would miss something. Right. You know? And so I always wanted my kids to finish the entire page. And I think it got to a point where there was, there was one lesson that, um, it was so frustrating and he had been doing work for well over an hour and he was just frustrated and he just wasn't getting it.

And I thought maybe I shouldn't make him, but I kept going back and forth. Like, should I make him finish? Should I not make him finish? And he took a break. He put it away for the rest of the day. And he went back to that same lesson the next day and something clicked and he got it.

So he still finished the page. I still didn't go back on my, my, you know, I wanted you to finish the whole page. Um, but he just needed a break. And I think sometimes we just need the break. We just need a few minutes or maybe the rest of the day to think about something else.

Um, and somebody was telling me that there's some kind of learning style thing where if your brain is just so clouded with this one concept you're trying to work on, just taking a break and doing something else and then coming back to it, you just look at it differently.

And so I think that that helps is letting your kids take a break. Um, obviously if it's, if they're crying, then we need to stop, especially if my boys, like if my boys are crying about math, we need to stop. Like there's something really wrong. Um, or it might not necessarily be a math thing.

It might be something else. Like maybe they know that we have to leave in 20 minutes to go somewhere and they know they can't finish this in 20 minutes. And so they're freaking out because they're not going to finish it. And it just so many emotions. So sometimes we have to kind of get to the real reason why they're being anxious or why they're having trouble.

Is it because they're thinking of other things that they've got to get done or is it because this is too hard? This is overwhelming right now. And I just need a break. So I think it's, we just have to know our kids, you know, and it's going to be trial and error.

I mean, you know, we're not given a manual from the hospital where we're always trial and error. I mean, I guess we do have the Bible, right? That is probably the closest thing we have to a manual. But with these kinds of things, you know, I feel like it is trial and error, but I think, you know, your kid.

So if every single day they're crying, then there's something's got to change, right? There's got to be something different that we need to do. Maybe it's the curriculum, but maybe it's just something else, you know, maybe trying to get to the root of it. Maybe it's a character thing.

Maybe I'm pushing them too hard. Maybe they don't need to do all the problems. Maybe they only need to do the odds or the evens, right? Or whatever, you know, whatever it is I'm making them do. Because I do feel like I expect a lot from my kids. I always have.

And so there have been a couple of times when I've had to say, okay, we're not going to turn that paper in this week. I'll let you, I'll let you, you know, present from an outline because I know you worked hard and you got to this point, you know, so I think, you know, we have to know our kids and know where those lines are, but being willing to think outside of just, is it this math that I'm working on or is it something else?

Is it a character thing or is it just stuff that's going on in my life that's distracting me from what I'm trying to work on right now? Does that make sense? Hey everyone, we want to interrupt this show to tell you about the classical learning cohort. So the classical learning cohort is comprised of small groups of CC parents learning how to become more confident, competent classical teachers.

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We hope that you enjoy the CLC. Let's get back to the show. One hundred percent. And I mean, is it, are they hungry? Is it protein? You know, is it the time of day? Like something you just said made me think, I wonder if part of my problem was the time of day because we would always do math in the afternoon.

That's just how we did it. That was our routine. Math was never our favorite. So, you know, my mom didn't make us get it out of the way at the beginning of the day. I know that's a common thing to do. However, when I went to university, because of where I placed in math, I had one time that I could choose from and it was 8am.

And then I went straight from my 8am class to the tutor. And we sat together for another hour because school wasn't even open yet. Like that's how early it was. And that's how behind, you know, I was for what I was trying to do. And it was fine. But all that to say, I think I needed to do it at the beginning of the day.

I think I needed to do it when my brain was fresh. My mind was fresh. I wasn't bogged down by anything else. I didn't have anywhere else. I could be, you know, if nobody's even here right now, except for the people who have to do this little math class.

And that set me up for success. So I love that you're saying, you know, kind of zoom out a little bit and take a step back and evaluate some of the other things that could be affecting your child. I didn't know until last week that if I told my child I was going to set a timer, which I, for me, that would have been, you know, encouraging that it would shut him down.

He collapsed in 25 seconds. Just he couldn't handle it. The timer was the problem. It was the time constraint for me. I'm like, yes, now I have a goal. I didn't know. But again, maybe there's some sort of a figurative timer in your child's mind and they know that this other thing is happening because they do have a concept of time.

And so they're feeling pressure, even though you didn't put that pressure there. Can you alleviate that? I just, I really wanted to reiterate what you said, because I think when it comes to topics like this or any challenge, some of it is the math problem itself, but most of it is everything around the math problem.

Yeah. And, and going back to your thing about the timer. So I used to test kids. I used to give the Woodcock Johnson the end of year test and the timer. Oh my goodness. If, if I didn't tell them I was timing them, it was fine. But as soon as they saw the timer or they heard that clicking or whatever, it was like, Oh, she's timing me.

I got to do really well. I got to do this fast, you know? And so, yeah, it's your environment, right? What if you sit underneath a clock? What if your dinner table is underneath the clock and all they hear is, I think that would drive me bananas. And I don't know that I could concentrate.

Whereas some kids could play music in their ears while they're doing their math. I can't do that either. I've tried to like have worship music on while I'm working and I can't concentrate. So everybody's different and we've got to figure out what that is. And that doesn't really have anything to do with, I mean, it does kind of have to do with math, but it's not just math as all the other subjects.

So whatever we're doing to accommodate our kids in other subjects, we need to do those with math. One thing I always, I hear about is, well, my kid has dyslexia, so he probably can't use this program. Sure he can. Whatever you've done in the other strands to, to help your student accomplish what you want them to accomplish, do those same things in math, right?

If you look at a page and it's really, really busy, what do you do? Well, why don't you cover up everything except one little section? So all they have to do is focus on it. Or if you are using a digital device, make it bigger, right? Zoom it in and all they see is this one little thing.

Because really our classical tools of attending, really paying attention to detail, oh, they would love that. They would love to pick one thing on this page and really pay attention to detail. So that's encouraging too, is that I don't necessarily think I need a specific curriculum for my student who has this challenge.

It's just how am I going to approach it? Whatever I've been doing, you know, if I have to read aloud to my kid because they struggle reading. Well, as they get older, they can read audiobooks or they can look at the, you know, on the Kindle, you can, it'll read it to you, but you can actually see the words as they, they tap, right?

So whatever I've done for my student in another strand, I can also do that with math. So it's, it's, it's still approachable, right? To, to any student out there, not just students who maybe be good, you know, work it at math. That's so true. And, and I feel like that's probably one of the most empowering aspects of being the parent and their first teacher and therefore their best teacher, because the Lord has allowed you to spend all this time with this child so that you can get to know them.

And of course we're continuing to learn, but, but that's the edge. That's, that's the advantage that the Lord gives you as the homeschool parent, because it's your kid. So whereas a teacher who just met them may or may not know what they need or what works for them in this other context, you know, because you've seen them under pressure in so many other contexts that your tool belt is so full.

So you can, you can draw on that. And it's true that I think sometimes we, maybe we default to what we've seen before when it comes to approaching certain subjects, especially math, especially science, some of those more, you know, heady topics, as we say. And so we just think to ourselves, okay, well, I can't apply what I know to be true about this other topic to math, because that's not how it's done.

It doesn't matter how it's done. God has put you in charge of your child's education. And so this is what we're going to do. Yeah, exactly. And I mean, constantly going back to him, you know, like my, my two boys are completely different. What worked for my first was completely opposite of what my second, you know, so I'm still learning, right.

Even as the older they get, we're still learning, but constantly going back to him and saying, Lord, help me know the right words to say to them. Or the white, if I'm, if I'm teaching something, give me the right words to explain this so that they understand, or give me patience as they're learning this and not me expecting them to get it on the first try.

Right. Cause that it might not be that they're going to get it today. They might get it a week later. They might get it next year. Right. So continually going back to him, I think is so important to, to keep him as part of your schooling, no matter what subject you're doing is keeping him in the forefront, like going to him and say, Lord, I just don't get it.

I'm not understanding this. Can you help me explain this? Can you help me understand this? And he will, he definitely will. He will. He's a good father. He knows how to give good gifts to his children. He's not withholding from us. You know, he's not like us. We may be flaky.

We don't know everything, but he's not like that. And we can go to him for the answers and he wants to, he's waiting. I love that, that he's just waiting to give us the wisdom that we are, are looking for. Um, it's such an encouragement. And also I think that's, that's the beauty and the benefit that, that we get as the parent, like our, we're, we want our child to learn this math that we probably already did learn, but the benefit we get is walking with the Lord and walking with them in the process of them learning.

We're learning maybe something completely unrelated, but it's growing our character while their character is growing as well. And that that's very true. Very true. Well, I know that I have a feeling you and I could talk for a long time about this. I'm curious about one of the questions that I sent you beforehand, which is about meeting God in the numbers.

I'd never thought about this concept until I talked to Kirstie Gilpin. Never, never thought about it. Meeting God in the numbers. Like, what are you talking about? I know how to beg him for answers because I'm confused, but actually seeing his character in numbers, that was a new concept to me until I started interacting with the math map.

And I'll be honest with you. I know it might sound dramatic, but it changed my life. It changed the way that I looked at the world around me because I just wasn't thinking, Hey, here's this tree. And it doesn't just illustrate the beauty of God, but it illustrates his order and like the structure and aspects of his intentionality and his character that you can only see if you know math.

So since you get to work on the math map and you get to have these conversations with these brilliant ladies all the time, do you have an example of a time that you've met God in the numbers or through math recently? So I see it everywhere now. It's kind of weird.

It's almost like you didn't know it was there before and now you're like, wow, like it's all around you. But I think a couple of weeks ago we had our week 30, our class, and they were sharing, they're seeing the unseen. They have to make this booklet where they walk around and they, they just pick random things.

They draw pictures of them in their, in their booklet. And then they tell us where they see God and where they see math. And this one kid, I wasn't really sure what he got the whole year. I, you know, every, every week, you know, he would participate and he would, um, you know, he would do what he was supposed to do, but he, he didn't talk very much.

And so I wasn't really sure what is he getting right? What is, and he could be getting more at home than, than in community, but he shared this one thing in his booklet and it almost made me cry. I like ran to his mom. I was like, ah, I need to tell you what he shared.

So he drew a picture of a stop sign. And I said, okay, tell me where you see math and your stop sign. And he said, well, there's, there's angle lines. Um, sometimes there's parallel lines depending on what, you know, what sides you're looking on. It's obviously a shape, right?

And I said, okay, well, how do you see God in a stop sign? And he said, well, the stop sign tells you what to do. And then it also protects you because if you don't do what it says, then you get, you know, a car runs into you. And that's what God does, right?

He gives you instructions. He tells you what to do. And then he protects you. He's giving you those things to protect you. And I was just floored. I'm like, this kid's 13 years old. And that's what he got from looking at a stop sign because of all of these conversations that we've had in community about looking at things and trying to see the math and trying to see God.

And I just got goosebumps. And I was like, wow, like if that is all you got, which I'm sure he got more, if that's all he got, what a big deal. And so it just made me think of all the little things that I take for granted looking around.

Maybe God was showing me that stop sign over and over again. And I just, it just wasn't clicking to me that that's the connection. And I had a 13 year old to point it out to me to say, what, did you know that this stop sign really shows you God's character and what, you know, that just goes to show you that our kids do teach us so much more than what we think, right?

We think we're teaching them, but man, they're really teaching us. And so I get excited about the math map just because of that conversation that we get to have with those kids. We look at a piece of art and we try to find math stuff. We try to find God in this work of art.

It starts out very comical. Like a week one, there's this, it's like all these things jumbled up together. There's this, there's this dog at the bottom of the screen and, and he's very malnourished. And my kids will say, well, I see God because there's a dog there and God made dogs.

Okay. I mean, that's really simplistic. Well, I'll try to point out where there's an, there's an angel in this picture and she looks really sad. Like, why do you think this angel is sad? And he was like, well, obviously the dog's bones are sticking out. Nobody fed the dog.

That's why she's sad. And so getting to have those conversations, that's how they start at the beginning of the year, but then they end up like the stop sign. And so if we get to be a part of that, just a little bit of that at home, watching our kids as they're learning that, or if we get the opportunity to direct and we get to see our kids do it, you know, other kids do it.

That's where I see him all the time is just showing me himself in little bitty things all around me. And I mean, would I have said that like six years ago when I agreed to be in a pilot? No, I was just, I was just excited that I got to be in a pilot because I thought that was really cool.

But now, I mean, just watching how much I've learned about God, just by looking around me at little things, every single thing I look at, I should be able to connect it to God. Right. And so being able to do that now, I feel like I would have never had that opportunity.

If I haven't had wanted to study math or wanted to study this a little bit more. So it's kind of a, it's not really one thing. It's just, it's continuous. We always, I always feel like I can see it. I just have to be mindful, right? I got to pay attention.

I can't be busy 24 hours a day or I'm going to miss it. But being intentional, like just going for a walk with your kids and just asking them, where do you see math out here? Like, you know, you're talking about the trees or looking at the branches and whatever the patterns, where do you see, where do you see math here?

Where do you see God here? And that's, that doesn't take any prep. There's nothing I have to print out and make my kids worksheets for. I'm just taking a walk outside and asking them a question. There's not a right or wrong answer. We're just asking, where do I see God here?

Where do I see math here? And let those connections kind of come together. Yeah. And the thing is, he is revealing himself. I think sometimes we feel so much pressure, or at least I'll speak for myself, but I bet you do too. Sometimes I feel so much pressure to try to orchestrate the moment.

You know, it's like, you're trying to orchestrate the light bulb moment. And I was a teacher for years before I even became a parent. So I know what it's like to make your plans and you have these goals for these children and they need to learn this thing. But at the end of the day, who brings the enlightenment?

Who gives the knowledge? It's not you. It's such a privilege to be in the room. And yeah, you better be faithful to do whatever your job is. So ask the question. But at the end of the day, God is revealing himself. He is revealing himself. He is faithful to do that.

And he's going to show your kids something about himself that he might not show you. And you're going to learn it through them. And so you don't have to worry when you're going out and you're saying, oh, I don't even know the answer to this question. Well, that's okay.

You can still ask the question. Let's discover together. Where do we see God outside? Who knows? I don't know what's going to happen out here. This is the wild. It could be anything. But that's part of the adventure and the honor. So thank you so much for having this conversation with me today, Babs.

I hope that you all listening are encouraged by it. That two women who would have definitely told you within 10 years ago that they didn't want to have anything to do with math and that's why they have the jobs that they have and have lived the lives that they've lived.

We're passionate about it. We're excited about it. And it's not just because we love the numbers and we've learned that, okay, our limitations weren't what we thought they were, although they are not what we thought they were. It's because we met the Lord there. And we are seeing that in the same way we're so passionate and excited to know God and to make him known in the other areas of our life.

This is a whole area of our life where we can do that too. And we can inspire our children to do that. So this summer, while you're playing math games, you're outside and you're playing sports and you're cooking and you're doing all of this stuff, we'd love to hear from you and to see where you are doing math in your daily life and being an everyday educator and leading the learning.

And so please definitely follow us on social media so you can tag us in your pictures or tell us your stories because we really do want to hear what you're doing. We do this for you. And also share the show with a friend who maybe has been discouraged about their math journey or their learning journey and need to be reminded that it's all about God.

It's all about the Lord because that's the truth of the matter. And he is always in the process of trying to show himself to us. And so we are the ones who need to slow down and look for him and we're not going to be disappointed when we do that.

Thank you guys for listening. We will talk to you again next week. Have a good one. Bye. Bye. Thank you. you For more information, visit www.fema.org