(upbeat music) - Welcome friends to this episode of the "Everyday Educator" podcast. I'm your host, Lisa Bailey, and I'm excited to spend some time with you today as we encourage one another, learn together, and ponder the delights and challenges that make homeschooling the adventure of a lifetime. Whether you're just considering this homeschooling possibility or deep into the daily delight of family learning, I believe you'll enjoy thinking along with us.

But don't forget, although this online community is awesome, you'll find even closer support in a local CC community. So go to classicalconversations.com and find a community near you today. Well, listeners, I'm excited to talk to you today about this question that people have asked me for years and that I asked myself all those many years ago when I started homeschooling.

How do I know that I started already? It's all about the beginning homeschool journey. I have met so many young moms and dads who are very interested in this whole notion of home-centered education. They are so mesmerized by the idea that their family could grow closer together every day for all the years that their children will spend at home and that they could actually learn together as a family.

But I have lots of these preschool homeschooling-minded moms who say, "I don't really know when I'm supposed "to start this and I don't know "what it's supposed to look like. "And did I already start? "And did I do it right? "And am I doing it right?" And you know, as parents, we have a lot of angst and we have a lot of anxiety and we have a lot of fear.

But I cajoled a good friend of mine into coming on today to talk to me about this. And I'm hoping that in the course of our conversation and our remembrances and our words of wisdom that we wish somebody had posed to us all those years ago, that you, moms and dads, will get some encouragement, will get a little inspiration, and maybe even some new ideas.

So I want you to welcome my good friend, Amy Jones. She is joining me on this journey today. Amy, thanks for coming. - Oh, thank you. This is, again, a delightful way of remembering. And you know, Lisa, as I was thinking about what you were just saying, just recognizing God's work in our life and how in the midst of just being really bewildered, I don't know if you ever felt that way.

- Yes. - I started that way. I still feel that way a lot. That God's path, just His shepherding is remarkable. Looking back, isn't it always when you're looking back and praise His steps as He's guided you? So it's given me a lot of joy to be remembering and just of how He superintended when I just really didn't know what was happening.

I could see all His work. It was really lovely. So thank you for helping me remember that. - It is so true, Amy, that it is sometimes easier to see the sure, steady arm of the Lord that was around your shoulders and that had a hand on your shoulder the whole time.

It's easier for me to see that when I look back and I realize, wow, that whole time, God was walking right beside of me and He was helping me. He was helping to guide my steps. Every time I ask Him, He did it. And when I ran ahead, He was usually, well, He was always waiting to welcome me back when I stumbled back with a skinned knee because I had run off on my own impetuously in some direction that just looked promising, but upon exploration turned out to be the wrong path.

But I love that reminder that God is here and He is working and He is drawing us to Himself. And that is the most important work of the Holy Spirit, to draw us to the Lord. And I think that it is the most important job of parenting to draw our children to the Lord, to introduce them to Him and show them that He is real and that He is strong and that He is loving and that He is joyful and merciful.

So that's really cool. I want us to talk about those early days of homeschooling. Do you remember your first days of homeschooling? And how many kids did you have when you began? And did you start homeschooling intentionally? Oh, those are good questions. Yes, we had two children at the time.

We now have four. I have, Will was five and Mary Claire was like three. And, you know, when you say intentionally, I guess I would say, you know, the first day of kindergarten. You know how you have that? Oh, yes, yes. You're five and now everyone's asking, what are you going to do?

You know, you have all the questions and you have to sign them up. I don't know if they do that. Oh gosh, yes, yes. Umbrella schools and curriculum. And all of a sudden it felt very official. You know, they're officially starting. We had to count days in those days.

I don't know. Oh, goodness, yes. And so it felt very public school-y, if that makes sense to you. It was like, oh, you have to have a curriculum and you have to have these objective standards and that sort of thing. And what I found was interesting is the way the Lord, and I would encourage parents, the way the Lord had been already shaping my understanding or my husband and I's understanding of a family and what is a family.

And so we did intentionally choose to homeschool because I thought, well, I can't hurt them at kindergarten, right? I mean, like I had taught school before. I was especially a teacher for a number of years. So I thought, well, I don't think I can mess them up too bad for kindergarten.

And also, this is my selfishness. I thought, you know, by golly, I have changed all their diapers. I taught him how to potty train. And I saw his first steps. I don't want anyone else to teach him to read. I want him to sit in the lap, let's read a story and be the person that it's just like, oh, he just recognized the word cat.

You know, so I wanted to be that person. So what and I, my husband and I, we, we were, and also my first one, this is interesting. The Lord gave us a wanderer. Oh, much a person that would just stand outside and look at the sky and, and he'd meander around.

You can never find him, you know, and we just thought, you know, he's not really going to be, he would not necessarily fit in a sitting desk situation. He asked a lot of questions. And he's, yeah, he just, he was just kind of a free spirit. And he wasn't undisciplined.

He just was like, explored things. - Right, right. Ask a lot of questions. - Ask a lot of questions. - Yes. - And we just wanted to keep that spirit in a sense that wandering, delightful person. We wanted that to, to grow and, and to be nurtured. And so, yes, we intentionally, I thought, well, okay, it's kindergarten.

I think I can, I, you know, I taught school. I think I can talk and then, and then there's, but, but I will tell you, Lisa, it's so interesting to me that the Lord had been working in me because I had been teaching. But even before that, as a student and college is learning to education, I had, it's always been this pull for me.

On one side, it was the professional education idea where, you know, you have school and you have curriculum and you have objectives and you check off lists and you see your child as, well, what have they accomplished today? They really, and then there was this other part of me that I had a church family, three families that the mothers were homeschooling.

This was back in the 80s. So this wasn't- - Right, very unusual. - Very unusual. But there were very different people. I had been involved with our kids in all sorts of ways in the church. And I could think, man, they talk to each other differently. They, they use words I don't use with children.

They treat them as whole beings there. And I would spend time in their homes and their homes were like this wonderful, it wasn't, they weren't, they were messy homes and they were normal homes, but there was something about their vision for how they treated their children as well as like very nurturing and very much a vision for, this is the kind of person I want them to become, not the thing I want them to do.

It was very unique. And I kept thinking, what is it about this? And, and so as, and then I had this professional education side and I worked as a special ed teacher with children who were very involved physically. So I, it, it sort of informed me like, and I, so I worked very closely with these children's, my students' parents.

I mean, I was in their home a lot. So I kept thinking, who are, children are people and they have, whether they can write their name or not, whether this child may never be able to write their name. Yet they're, they, they have a culture. They have a heritage.

They are nurtured. They're, they're definitely influenced by their family, but they're also influencing their family, how they're such a vital part of their family. And then seeing how these homeschool moms treated, grew, had this vision of their own culture and their family, I kept thinking, I want that. I want this, I want this holistic, wholesome place where my children feel nurtured, not because of what they can do or how they perform, but really who they are.

Like, it's like, well, I'm sure you discovered that, like your children are not who you are. Your children are gifts from God and you're just keep unwrapping them. - Yes. - Discover things about them that I think I, I would never think that. - I would never have done that.

I probably would not have done it that way, God. I mean, because it makes it harder for me because I don't understand that. - I don't understand. So I feel like, yes, we intentionally moved in that journey, but I think the past experiences really informed, helped us both start having those conversations.

Like, well, what is it these having children and what, who are children? - Right. I think that's really, that's really cool that you intentionally homeschooled for a variety of reasons, but your idea of what that might mean and should mean and could mean in your family continued to evolve as you got to know your children and as you got to know the possibilities of homeschooling.

That's actually, Amy, that is super encouraging. I know for our listeners to think, oh, so you don't necessarily, everybody doesn't have it all figured out when we start. We are all just kind of, I think that the majority of us are maybe not bumbling through, but the Lord leads us.

It's a journey for us as well as for our children. And the Lord removes the scales from our eyes and He leads us down fresh paths. And we discover more and more about what He is wanting us to discover about Him, about our children, about ourselves, and about the journey as we go.

So I like that. So you did begin intentionally. And it was mostly when your oldest was ready to start kindergarten. - But you know, that was the dilemma, right? Because it felt like that was the official day. You know, I go in September 1st and whatever. But actually we had been, you know, and this is what I wanted to say.

You've been teaching your children for years. I mean, since they were infants, you're like, you know, this is how we eat our food. This is how we say this word. You're revealing to them that this is how a family works. This is how being loved works or how going to sleep works.

Or this is what a bath is like. And this is why we take baths. And then you answer all their little questions, you know. - Yes, as you live together. - Isn't that an extension of what you do as an adult too? Like you're always learning. You're a person, you know.

- Yes, yes. - Stop, start at five and here's your books and this is your accomplishment. It's very holistic. And like you were saying, even as parents, you're constantly growing. Didn't you just grow tremendously? - So much. I thought homeschooling was all about my kids. And now I wonder if it was all about me all along, what God was leading me to learn and how he just took him 18 years of my children's lives to shape me into half the person he really wants me to be eventually.

- Absolutely, I shamefully admit that. - Well, I know that I meet in my travels, I meet a lot of moms and dads at practicums and at other events who say, well, I know it's probably about time for us to decide if we're gonna homeschool or not. And I think for so many of us, because like you were saying, you start kindergarten and then all of a sudden there is a curriculum and there's a days you have to register and you have to count your days and you have to have a curriculum.

And so that's what we think of is homeschooling begins when you start keeping attendance or marking progress reports or checking off boxes. And I remember coming to the realization that the Lord might be calling us to homeschool. And I was stroking out over, when am I going to start homeschooling?

And I had a friend, a dear friend, who's actually at the time, the family were missionaries in Brazil and they were home on furlough and had come to stay with us for a while. And she had been with us for about a week and she was a homeschooling mom.

And I thought, yeah, but you're on the mission field. So obviously that's what you're gonna do. And I was talking to her about, I'm thinking I'm considering homeschooling, but I'm not really sure when to start or how to start. And I'm not really sure that I'm really up for this.

And she looked at me so funny and she said, what are you even talking about? She said, I have lived with you for a week and I have watched you with your children. You are already homeschooling. What do you mean you're already doing it? And I said, but I don't have a curriculum.

She said, you, like you were just saying, Amy, you are teaching your child how to set the table and how to fix breakfast and how to serve a guest and how to take turns and how to go to the library and how to keep up with your belongings. And what makes the sun rise?

And why is it cooler now? And why does the moon follow me? And she said, you're answering all of the questions. She said, you're already homeschooling. But I suspect a lot of our listeners were saying to themselves the things that you and I said, Amy. We have to have a curriculum when we start homeschooling.

If we're going to really homeschool, we need to have a start date and we need to have a schedule and we need to have a daily lesson plan and we need to have a space dedicated in our home where we always go and sit and we need to have a routine or a schedule.

And so we think that even when our children are really little and we know they're not really ready for a regimented kind of day, that that would be very odd and hard for all of us to get used to. Yeah, but we get so anxious about it because in our minds, there is school and homeschool.

And then there's before we start. And I just want us to think, I think that one of my desires with this podcast is for us to blur those lines a little bit, to realize that the camera's really kind of blurred there. The edges are very blurred. If you're going to begin homeschooling with your three and four and five-year-old even, it might not need to look like you always thought it needed to look.

Amy, let me ask you this. Is there a real line between homeschooling and not homeschooling yet? Yes, I think part of it is-- and this is what we have to wrestle with. And it's a good wrestling, Lisa. It's a very important definition that we need to really hammer out within our family culture.

What is education? What does that mean? And what kind of human being are we becoming? And how does that work? And I think that there's really not-- if you think of education in terms of learning about the world and other people and the culture, and if you think about education in a very broad sense, there's not a line because we're doing it all the time.

I'm still doing it. You're still doing it. We're still learning and growing because we're eternal beings. God is shaping and forming us as believers into the conformity of Christ. And that encompasses a whole lot of things. The world is a really big, complicated, deep, rich, wide, open place. So, and it's going to take more than a lifetime, right, to discover all that.

So that's the journey God has us on. And I think what the struggle with us is that our education, I'm saying our public education system really, really narrows that vision. Very, very, very, very, very small and very, very fragmented and different. And they label it different parts as if you're a different parts, like you're a reading person or you're-- Right.

This is your math part. Or this is, we're going to socialize you now because you're going to learn how to deal with your neighbor and who is your neighbor. And it's all like relegated instead of going, that's not who we-- that's just very unnatural. That's just not-- Right, that's actually not how the world is.

No, no. I mean, hardly ever do you function with just in a room with 28 people who are your same age. Well, and-- When is that? That never happens in real life. And what does that mean if I'm 25 and there are other 25-year-olds? Are we all the same?

Are we all going to learn in the same way, in the same pattern? Like, oh, I know calculus and you don't. So you must not be up to par on being a 25-year-old. It's so unnatural to think-- Yeah, yeah. So peer-oriented and so much like this standardized idea of how we move even through stages.

I mean, people say, oh, you're a late bloomer. What does that mean? Like, are we on time for something? And so I think the way the homeschooling is like, to me, it's much more you are-- You must study, naturally study your children. You study and you think and you pray and you talk to your spouse and you talk to your community and like, hey, it seems like they're struggling here.

Is that struggling or are they just not ready? And I think that's a really good struggle. I think that's a really good wrestling God allows us to go through, because we have to come out with what's the definition of who our family is, what we believe, how we want to treat one another, who we want to invite into our home, and how we want to serve people.

And how do we want to pray? How do I want to expose them to what the world is like? Do I want them exposed in this way or that? How am I going to-- how are we going to shepherd, protect? And I don't know. To me, it's much like you said, the line is-- there's not a line.

Like, one day I'm going to start learning something because I'm five and then up until then, nope. It's just-- and we're sort of told that it doesn't-- our world doesn't validate our humanity well, and I think we are tempted-- and I'm totally this person-- tempted to validate our schooling by going back to that model that we were familiar-- or I was familiar with.

Absolutely, when we feel like we need a checklist. Yeah, there's a lesson-- Or a progress report. A progress report. And at the end of the day, or like, did you make a percentage? Did you know all the answers? That's good. Did you know half the answers? That's bad. You know, so I've been sort of conditioned to believe that, and we are kind of put on the spotlight when people ask us, "Well, what do you do every day?" You know, my child always said, "Well, nothing really." I know!

My kids-- I remember one answer. My older child said, "Oh, well, we never really did school at all until Sarah was in kindergarten." Well, by then, Stephanie was in the third grade, and I'm like, "Oh, my stars. They're going to come for me." That's not the truth, but then-- but now I can look back and be very pleased.

I'm actually very excited for those three years of her life. She was learning so much, but she didn't think that was school because it was so interesting and it was so fun. And so that's actually awesome. See, I know now, and I can tell from listening to you, I know now that to begin homeschooling, like all these people are asking me, to begin homeschooling, I did not need a full curriculum or a heavily planned schedule, but just like you're saying, Amy, I did need to have thought about what I wanted my kids to learn and why I wanted them to know those things.

And I needed to know something about how I would like to introduce them to people and places and ideas. So why is that pre-thinking? Because, you know, I'll be honest, people come up and they say, "Okay, I'm ready to start homeschooling my kids. I think it's time for us to start homeschooling." And they ask me about a curriculum and a schedule.

But I would like to say to people, that's actually not the first thing. Actually, the first thing is to think about, like what you were saying, what do we want our family to be like? What are our family's-- what are our family's goals and what are our family's rules and what are our family's priorities?

And how do we want to learn and how much do we want to do together? Why are those--why is that pre-thinking stuff so important, Amy? >> Well, I think what it does is it brings us back again to--it forces us to think, well, what is the definition of a family?

It's the first culture God has designed, right? He designed this beautiful culture of dad, mom, and child, and that there are children and he says, "These are blessings. These are blessings that he's bestowed on us." And so seeing that in light of that, that--and he also reminds us like when you're standing up or walking or eating at the table, that you are testifying to the goodness of his nature.

And then we're helping children recognize like, look, here's the Lord. Look, he created this world or what you're interested in, you know, this turtle or this cloud or, you know, you are--like you said, you're under--you're thinking and praying and being deliberate. I want to say this is not just Harry Carey, you know, you're not just like, "Oh, well, what's our day going to be like?" It's not like that.

It's like, what is the shaping and forming of this culture that we're creating? And we're creating a heritage. I mean, you see it in your family. You have grandchildren, and they're going to have children, and they're going to have children. So what is it that the Lord would call us and how he would want us to shape our family?

And I think that that pre-thinking and just spending time praying and studying your children and recognize the uniqueness of your own home. Like, where has he put us? Has he put us in a neighborhood? Has he put us on a farm? Has he put us in an apartment? Has he put us--where has he put us?

What church setting has he put us in? And so the rhythm of the day, I would strongly recommend that you don't have to have a schedule, like at 9.02 we do this and 9.03. But saying, "Okay, we have a predictable rhythm of our day, and I want to think about what that looks like." Like if dad doesn't go to work until 10 a.m., mom needs to sleep in because she's a nurse or whatever, then contemplate, like, "Okay, here's the rhythm of our day.

We take Fridays off because dad is home or we work on Saturday because of that." You know, think about the rhythm of your family. It doesn't have to sit in a strict, like, eight o'clock to three o'clock. The bus drops them off. You know, it's not like that. So really allowing yourself the freedom to examine the uniqueness of your family and then incorporating a rhythm to your family.

And then, yeah, the curriculum is pretty much, it can be a life curriculum, right? But it's also like how, look around, what community are we in? How can we serve other people? How do we start our day? Like in prayer, help them to, you know, they delight in what you delight in.

So finding your delight in the Lord and seeking Him, like letting them see you pray, letting them see this is how we serve one another in our home and how we serve people outside our home. What are some things that are exciting to explore? And that's where, to me, that exploration stage, or it's where you can really start incorporating.

If you want curriculum, just listen to your kids. Like, what are they really interested in? And then looking for, I don't know, salamanders. Well, go to the prairie and go to the aquarium and look around in a stream and draw some pictures. And, you know, that start, I think it really, for younger kids, it really helps if you sort of start your own curriculum exploration, like give it a shot, you know, just say, you know, we're just going to give it a shot this way.

We're going to listen to what do you want to learn about, and then we're going to figure it out. And then I'm going to examine it at the end of the week. Well, hey, how did that work? You know, did we write? Did we learn any words? Like, did we learn any new words?

Maybe we learned what a hellbender was. I never know what a salamander was. Maybe we went to the aquarium. You know, just I think you'll be surprised at what you, your children learn. They're just natural little learners. And I don't think you have to have it all together. Yeah, I know you don't, because I never did.

And I know you really don't. And you don't. For those moms and dads who are listening, who say, okay, I'm talking about, I feel like, you know, my three-year-old and my four-year-old are ready to do something. And I'm not trying to teach them to read. I know that I don't need a quote unquote curriculum.

But what is it that I'm supposed to be doing? If I say I'm going to start homeschooling them, what would it look like? Amy, you have given some beautiful ideas. So you don't have to have a schedule where every day at nine o'clock you do this and every day at two o'clock you do that.

But having a rhythm or a routine is actually very comforting to children. They actually like enough of a routine that things are predictable. It makes them feel safe. It helps them feel a little bit in control. Because let's face it, a three-year-old is not in control of much. And hello, at home should not be the one in control of the family.

That's a big mistake. If you have made that mistake, you are already feeling the effects. But having things be predictable. So it may be that a rhythm or routine might look like every morning you snuggle in bed to wake up, and you read a Bible verse, and you get up and you make the bed.

And they know that after that, every morning we're going to eat breakfast, and then we're going to brush our teeth, and then we'll do some little chores. And everybody has their own chore, and then maybe you rotate. And maybe every morning you read, and then every morning you play outside.

And then there's lots of things, like Amy was describing, that fit into there. Maybe you are really interested in why are the leaves in the backyard red, and they used to be green. So maybe you're going to read The Fall of Freddy the Leaf, or you're going to go to the library and find books about what happens to the forest in the fall, or what doesn't happen to the forest in the fall, depending on where you live.

And then you're going to go outside and play, and you're going to collect things that weren't there two months ago. Why are there acorns on the ground now? But it's a routine. And then people eat lunch, and then you have nap time, or maybe you have quiet in your room with a book time.

These are predictable things. It's not a schedule. And you can change it up. But if you are looking for something that says, "I am now intentionally doing something," a routine is very comforting for a little child, but it also helps you as the mom or dad, the homeschool parent, to feel like you are intentionally creating an atmosphere of family learning.

Yes, exactly. That's exactly right. And the routine, you're not recreating the day from scratch every day. Right. It's exhausting. If you've been a first year teacher, and you get through the first week, and you go, "I've got to do 50 more weeks of this," you cannot do it. You cannot make Disney World every day in your home.

You cannot do that. And it's not healthy for your children. So to me, that rhythm, that routine, we all thrive on that. And as a mother, I felt like it was sort of expected. So it kind of carried. I wasn't pushing the rock up the hill every day like, "Okay, yes." Surprise.

Do chores. Like, no, every day we do chores. Now, sometimes, a lot of times, we got resistance. Like, "Why do I have to empty the dishwasher?" And you're like, "Okay, but this is what we do." It just helped everyone know what their expectations were. And that also helped with discipline.

Like, when you did have a child that complained or was like, whined, that they have to go to devotions. Yes, of course. Here's a great opportunity for us to learn about our character is to practice the self-discipline or to fold our hands when we pray instead of poke our neighbor.

You know, those are ways. And isn't that the way God teaches us? He's like, there's those rhythms. And when we rail against those, it's like we get disciplined or God shows us something about ourselves that we're like, "Wow, I didn't realize that I had a struggle with obedience." You know, it's just how He teaches us.

And I think, honestly, you as parents are really their curriculum. Your love for them and your delight in things and the way you manage. And it's not perfection, the way you seek forgiveness. I mean, I think even apologizing to your children sometimes like, "Mommy was grouchy. I'm so sorry." That really, those lessons, Lisa, are the hidden ones.

And it is so, it is. It's very beautiful. And when you are learning alongside your children, when you are with them every day, you see those little foibles that come up so easily and so surely in all of our children. But it also, when you are with them every day and you think, "Okay, A, I don't want to always deal with this.

I don't want to have to deal with this every day. We need to find a solution to this." But when you're with your child every day, you know your child's personality. And you know when, "Okay, so this is defiance, but this is anything. Weariness, fear, anxiety, hunger. And what do I need?

What is this? What is this child? Who is this child? And how can I help this child to cope?" I know with my grandson, who's two, pretty verbal too. So he will, he has, oh, sometimes he does not want to, he just wants to do what he wants to do.

And he is quite persistent in that. Want to do this. Want to do this. Want to do this. And you try to distract him. What we have discovered works with him is when he gets, when he starts to kind of spin out of control because this thing he wants to do or wants to see is not going to be forthcoming right away, we will say to him, "That cannot happen." I'll hold his hand.

"But do you want me to tell you the plan?" And he's like, "Yes." And I said, "Okay, this is the plan. First, we are going to change sister. Then we are going to get a milk drink. Then we are going to find your shoes. Then we are going to go outside.

And if it is still raining, we will stomp in the puddles." And so then he's like, "Okay, he can go with the plan." But, you know, you would think, I don't need to explain this to a two-year-old. I just need to say, "No, not now." But that's not where he is.

He's actually in the thinking about it. Why can't I do it now? And that works for him. So for parents who are thinking, "I feel like I need to be doing something intentionally. If I'm going to be homeschooling, it needs to look like something." Well, I want you to hold the "look like something" very loosely.

It can be just as broad as we were saying that that routine is. But the pieces can look different. What's inside each activity could look different every day. And listen, the duration of each piece might be different every day. Amy, did you always do the same thing for the same amount of time every day?

I don't remember. I told my daughter who's homeschooling. I probably, in the 20-something years we homeschooled, maybe had 10 days that went, quote, "well," or like I thought. Maybe. Maybe. I don't even know if there were 10. No. Because you're dealing with human beings. If I was working in a factory, I could say I turned out 20,000 chocolate bonbons.

And that would be measured. And I would get a pat on the head and send home. But that's just not how people work. If you look at even in terms of Scripture, there's nothing. There's so many unpredictable things that people do. And God works very individualistically with us. He knows.

He knows our form. He knows before words are on our mouth. I mean, He knows us. He knows us so well. And we invite Him to search us and know us. So there's this beauty of, and I think that's the loveliness of being a parent. It is so amazing that we get to study a human being.

We get to, like you said, discover things about children like, oh, like this child, they need quiet in the afternoon. Yes. This child needs to run and fill the floor. This child, this child is a wiggle worm, you know. This child is going to ask a million questions. I have one.

It's like Gideon, like what he would like, what's first? What second he would ask? Well, what are we doing today? It used to drive me crazy. I think, well, why does he keep asking? I know, what's it to you, kid? Why does it matter? But it really mattered to him.

Like he knew how to anticipate for his day. And so we would just stop and say, well, now we're going to do this. And then next we're going to do this. And then after that, we're going to, you know, do this. And that was just settling. And we're all different like that.

And I tried just giving ourselves the grace to apply to others. We are not. And, and also to realize you're not going to get it right. You're, you're not, you're, you're going to wrong sometimes. And I feel like what I loved about the Lord is he would reassure us that if I got it wrong the first time, bye, cracky, I would have to, it would be another time.

I would practice the skill of not getting frustrated or understanding what long suffering means, not in a bad way, but knowing how to appreciate someone, to put someone else's interest ahead of my own. I mean, I found out how much selfish ambition and empty could see my lands when I had children.

It was so bad. And I just think sometimes offering ourselves the grace and the grace to our children to recognize God has put a, you're only going to have one Gideon in the entire, if you think about it, one Gideon of all the billions of people that are born on this world, in this world, only one, you know?

And so what privilege? I just think, my goodness, what else could I be doing that's better than that? You know, like, I don't know what I could be investing in, except this eternal little being. That's right. You're shepherding this little soul. It's remarkable. Yes. You know, it's the kind of thing where we think homeschool is only about teaching our child to read, or to relate to numbers well, or to be able to orient events in time, or look at something under a microscope and know how to, you know, move the eyepiece so that we can see it clearly.

We think all of those things as school, all of those things as homeschooling. But listen, parents of three and four-year-olds are not primarily considering those things. So what are we hoping to do? Well, you are hoping to raise a child who is unselfish, as far as a three and four-year-old can be unselfish.

You're trying to raise a child who knows how to take turns and to sit quietly. So what are some, Amy, help me think. What are some of those foundational ideas, like kindness and sharing, and some of those foundational skills, like tying your shoe and setting the table? Things that aren't academic, but that are awesome starting points for shepherding these little souls into their growing up years.

Oh, yeah. I think, and I would just say, you know, definitely you have good manners, like how you greet people, or, you know, maybe you want to visit someone. Like our young ones, sometimes their great-grandmother, you know, older people look a little untouchable. Just kind of helping them understand about people and how to greet people, you know, how to wash your hands, you know, how to help another child, like playing with a younger sibling on, like on their terms instead of your terms.

That's really tricky. And understand that, and you can model those things, you know, how to celebrate the day, like, ooh, what can, what fun thing did you do to help them report back? What are some, let's think about some things that were fun today, and what we can be thankful for, and not in a heavy handed way, but just like, wasn't it fun to take that walk today?

Wasn't that a surprise when we saw daddy come home? You know, I think just helping them recognize or drawing attention to things in their day, in the rhythm of their day that are really good things, or like, ooh, it really hurt, you know, so-and-so's feelings when we were unkind, you know, and having those conversations about behavior, but also character, and also just like how you use a spoon, or how do you set the table?

Yes, yes. Little things that that's a way we, let's go pick flowers for the table tonight, you know, little decorations and helping them recognize that that blesses and helps other people feel good, you know, but also there are just, educate yourself as a mom or dad, like, what are some little things they should be doing?

Can they skip yet? Or one foot, can they ride a tricycle? Or can they hold a pencil or a crayon? Get them to just scribble. Yeah, there are all kinds of things that will help them develop large muscle coordination and small muscle coordination. And there are, for three and four year olds, there are all kinds of activities that will lead to reading and writing that aren't, that you would say, but that's not, that's not learning how to read.

But learning how to track from left to right is part of learning how to read. So, so what do you do? So when you're reading before, before nap time, put your finger under the words that you're reading and move from left to right. Or when you are doing puzzles with your kids, take all the puzzle pieces out and put them to the left of the puzzle.

And then you're moving from left to right to put the puzzle back together. Things like, things like that. Things like identifying letters and identifying numbers. When you're at the store or riding down the road or taking a walk, you can do it with house numbers or finding patterns is great.

I can remember not realizing that finding patterns, seeing patterns in the world is math. And I can remember when my oldest daughter was really little, she went through this phase where she wanted to play blocks like all the time. I mean, so often, so much blocks. And I would just, you know, I would get enough of the blocks pretty fast.

I realized that I was playing the blocks beside of her. She didn't always need me to be, you know, making the story or the tower with her. And so I was picking up blocks and I was, I didn't really realize that I was laying them down in color patterns just to keep my brain from just turning to mush as we sat there on the floor for hours.

And then one day she looked to see what I was doing and she watched me for a while. And then she reached over and picked up the next block. And it was the continuation of the pattern. And I had no idea that she was paying attention. That's a math skill.

That's a math skill. Making cookies is a math skill because it's measurement. Playing with water. Gideon the other night was in the big bathtub at my house. He loves Lolly's bathtub because it's big. And he had two cups in his hand, little plastic cups, and they were similar in size, but not exact.

And so he was filling the water up and then he'd pour all the blue cup into the green cup and then all the green cup into the blue cup. And he went back and forth like that for a while. And then he was not really paying attention to me.

He was looking down, he said almost to himself, and he held up the green cup and he said, "That's the big one." You know, it's like, "That's my word. You're right." And so then he played for a while and then he said, "The blue one is little." And then he just went on.

You know, they're making observations. So intentional play, there are ways that you can make play intentional and winsome and engaging for little people and big people. And that's best. That's the best way to usher your family into homeschooling. - It is. And it's just, if you can imagine from the time those, that infant to the time they're three, think of everything they have learned in those three years.

Think it is absolutely amazing what their little brains and bodies are doing and discovering and learning. You don't have to do much more than just, if they can think about a three year, think about Gideon. Was he two? - Yeah, he's two. - He's walking. He was an infant.

He probably, I don't know, weighed seven pounds, you know. And just the Lord has so blessed our children with that natural interest, the natural proclivity to learn and move. And I think sometimes I just limited them because of my own limitations of understanding what you need to do this when in front of you, there is so much in your home.

You don't have to buy lots of stuff. There's so much around that you can just like, yes, pouring water, like hours. - Yes, playing in the sink. My girls like to play Polly's in the sink. Yes, they did. - Yes, so just being aware and being open to understanding how this person, this is a person that God has designed and you get the privilege of being part of how you shape and form them and just asking the Lord to open my eyes.

That's what I had to do. Show me because I was pretty limited in my vision at first, but the Lord is gracious. - I love that, Amy. I love that. So moms and dads, this is what we're saying. Don't let your idea of home-centered education be dictated by the narrow version of education you may have had as you were growing up.

Realize that your family can learn together and with your really young children that you want to ease into the homeschool journey, you can teach a plethora of things through intentional play, through conversation, and through wonder and imagination. And that is the perfect, that's the perfect path for the beginning of your homeschool journey.

We think that you will enjoy it more than you ever believed possible if you can relax and enjoy the journey with your kids. I want to tell you, though, if you still are interested and you want to know what maybe it would look like in a few more years when you are ready for a community, when you are ready for maybe a little more intentional learning, a little more structured play, you may be interested in what makes our classical conversations groups unique.

If you are interested in homeschooling or interested in the classical conversations communities you hear so much about, you can go online to classicalconversations.com/events and find out about local open houses near you. You will discover our Christ-centered classical approach to education. And you'll meet some other CC parents, some experienced CC parents, and you can get instant answers to some of your homeschooling questions.

So find an information near you or even one online. Go to classicalconversations.com/events. Well, I hope that this has given you some good things to think about and maybe been a little bit of an encouragement, too. Amy, I appreciate walking down memory lane with you and getting some good ideas from you that I'm going to use with my grandkids.

So I appreciate you being with me today. It's been a lovely conversation. Thank you, Lisa. It's a lot of fun. Yeah, I love it. I love it. Listeners, I'll see you next week, okay? Bye-bye.