I am James Hong and welcome to the Surpassing Value Podcast. The fuel and desire for this podcast was born out of a compulsion to flesh out what's been going on in the midst of an ocean of megaphones that may not actually withstand the test of scrutiny. As a signpost theologian, I will do my best to filter out the impurities and point people in the right direction.

For this episode, I wanted to talk about the concepts of faith and reason coupled with grace and logic. Faith and reason coupled with grace and logic. It could be said that arguably prior to the Enlightenment period, faith and reason were not viewed as antagonistic elements in conflict with each other as it is assumed today.

However, this type of thinking has left an indelible mark through the centuries and has pierced its way through society and even the church. It is for that reason much of our society and culture believes faith and reason to be opposing foes with reason of course being the superior boxer.

Faith is confined to subjectivity, privacy, weakness, and impotence. Many Christians also seem to misunderstand the compatibility of faith and reason. Not only do they misunderstand the compatibility of faith and reason, but they seem to believe just like the rest of society that they are indeed somehow antagonistic to each other.

As if Christianity requires you to leave your mind at the door. As if Christianity requires you to not ask any questions. As if Christianity would not withstand the test of scrutiny. This seemingly unspoken understanding leads to a chilling effect on asking questions that may make you seem less pious.

And so because one doesn't want to be perceived as less pious, genuine questions that could easily be answered go unasked. Some of these questions may include the following. Is there any evidence outside the New Testament for the claims made by the New Testament? Was Jesus a historical figure? Why are there so many religions in the world if there is only one way to God as Christianity claims?

Isn't the nature of faith blind? Doesn't having faith require that I put my trust in something without regard to what it is? All these questions I just posed can be dealt with very easily, yet instead of seeing the claims of Christ and the implications of what God has said as the crown jewel of all thought and life, Christians may see God's word as antiquated, archaic, or maybe even irrelevant.

How starkly different is that tone compared to what is told of us in 1 Corinthians 1.20? 1 Corinthians 1.20 states, "Where is the wise person? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has God not made foolish the wisdom of the world?" Where is the wise person?

Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has God not made foolish the wisdom of the world? When we read that passage, do we see how God has made the world's wisdom foolish or deep inside? Do we read this passage and think to ourselves that He hasn't?

Of course, this isn't true for everybody, however, it may be markedly true depending on a particular area you happen to be situated in and whether or not it's a mix of how you were raised, the larger cultural subcontext that you're in, and even ignorance of what the scriptures themselves proclaim on this issue.

The scriptures themselves never state faith to be antagonistic to reason. In fact, you see God employ reason many times in the Old Testament and you see Christ Himself employ reason many times in the New Testament. It is for these reasons and that for the purposes of this conversation I would define faith very simply in the following way.

On the basis of what I do know about God, I will trust God with the things I don't know. On the basis of what I do know about God, I will trust God with the things I don't know. I know God to be good, to be sovereign, to be in full control, to be kind, and to be just.

I don't know why this evil thing happened. I don't know why I'm going through the difficult circumstances I'm going through. I don't know why my family is built in such a way when this other person's family is not built in the same way my family is. But I will trust Him.

I will trust Him because I know He is good. I know He is kind. And even when I do not know the exact reason I am undergoing a difficult circumstance, I know that I am in good hands. Hebrews 11:1 states it like this, "Now faith is a certainty of things hoped for, a proof of things not seen, for by it the people of old gained approval." I want to go over some passages with you that reinforce this idea, both from the New Testament and the Old Testament.

The first passage I want to start with is in John 10 verses 22 to 39. John 10 verses 22 to 39 says this. "At that time the Feast of Dedication took place in Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was walking the temple area in the portico of Solomon. The Jews then surrounded Him and began saying to Him, 'How long will You keep us in suspense?

If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.' Jesus answered them, 'I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. My sheep listen to My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me, and I give them eternal life.

And they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.' The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him.

Jesus replied to them, 'I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?' The Jews answered Him, 'We are not stoning you for a good work, but for blasphemy. And because you, being a man, make yourself out to be God.' Jesus answered them, 'Has it not been written in your law, "I said, "You are gods""?

If He called them gods to whom the Word of God came, and the Scripture cannot be nullified, are you saying of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, "You are blaspheming Me because I said, "I am the Son of God"? If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me.

But if I do them, even though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I am the Father." Therefore they were seeking again to arrest Him, and He eluded their grasp." Here, as the greater than Solomon is walking in Solomon's portico, He is asked to make a frank admission.

Jesus responds by stating that what He has done has already answered their question. The future Messiah, you see, would accomplish a certain set of very particular, extraordinary, and supernatural set of works. Isaiah 35, 4-6 and Isaiah 61, 1-3 were portions of the Old Testament that were understood to be the future works of the Messiah and the works that would validate who the Messiah would be.

Isaiah 35, 4-6 states, "Say to those with anxious heart, 'Take courage, fear not; behold, your God will come with vengeance; the retribution of God will come, but He will save you.' Then the eyes of those who are blind will be opened, and the ears of those who are deaf will be unstopped.

Then those who limp will leap like deer, and the tongue of those who cannot speak will shout for joy. For waters will burst forth in the wilderness, and streams in the desert." Isaiah 61, 1-3 states, "The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, because the Lord anointed me to bring good news to the humble; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim release to the captives and freedom to the prisoners, to proclaim the favorable year of the Lord and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all who mourn, to grant those who mourn in Zion, giving them a garland instead of ashes, the oil of gladness instead of mourning, the cloak of praise instead of a disheartened spirit.

So they will be called oaks of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that He may be glorified." Having accomplished this in their midst already, and having announced at the beginning of His ministry that Isaiah 61 had indeed been fulfilled, remember Luke 4, Jesus states plainly that He already told them, and that the reason they did not believe was because they were not of His sheep.

He goes on to unequivocally state that He is also God, "I and the Father are one." Jesus' statement about His own deity not being lost on them, they pick up stones to murder Him. Jesus then asks them for which work was He being stoned for. Now don't miss out on the reasoning here.

Jesus doesn't say, "Why are you stoning me for claiming to be God?" If He did, He would be ceding the very ground He is about to use. Instead, Jesus asks for which work are they stoning Him for. Their reply is that they were not stoning Him for a good work, but because He claimed to be God.

Jesus replies, "But wait a minute. Is that an offense worth stoning for, outside of any other evidence?" Jesus then quotes Psalm 82.6, which reads, "I said, 'You are gods, and all of you are sons of the Most High.'" Jesus' argument is roughly the following. If God Himself uses that term outside of referring to Himself, and the ones stoning Jesus need not be convinced of the authority of the Scripture otherwise, then how could that be an offense worthy of capital punishment outside of any other contextual evidence?

How could the mere mention of referring to oneself as God be blasphemy in light of Psalm 82.6? And indeed, had any other person said that outside of Christ, it would have been blasphemy, but the reference alone is not blasphemy since that would necessarily entail that the Messiah wouldn't be given allowance to refer to Himself as God.

But the mere reference alone, according to the Old Testament, is not blasphemy, since there is one who could say that without it being blasphemy, and that person was standing right before them. Jesus goes on to reason with them even further. He states that if He is not doing the works of the Father, or in other words, if He is not fulfilling Isaiah 35 and Isaiah 61, then yes, do not believe Him.

But if He is indeed fulfilling Isaiah 35 and Isaiah 61, and He clearly was, even if they do not believe the substance of what He is saying, are they not compelled to question their own disbelief? This is only one example of the intersection of grace and logic. Jesus does not have to plead with them or reason with them, yet He graciously does.

He does in hopes that the pleading and the reasoning will bring them to their senses. Even if you do not like the substance, even if you were expecting something completely different when it came to the Messiah, doesn't the very fact that I am fulfilling Isaiah 35 and Isaiah 61, which were both understood to be messianic passages, doesn't that compel you to perhaps maybe re-evaluate your perceptions about the Messiah, and therefore Christ Himself?

To say the same thing yet another way, instead of starting with your own subjective presuppositions as morally true, start with what the Word of God says to be true, since you're already stating that is your starting point, and if that is your starting point, and Christ is fulfilling the substance of it, then doesn't it stand to reason that your preconceived notions about who the Messiah is and who I am is actually incorrect, instead of the other way around?

If you at least believed what you were seeing with your own eyes, with your own two eyes, then you would see that God is right in front of you. You would see that God is right in front of you. What about the Old Testament? Does God employ reason in the Old Testament?

Consider Isaiah 118, "Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord. Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow. Though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool. Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord." God is asking us to employ our faculty of reason, based on who He is, His power, His redemption, His goodness, and His willingness to clean those who come to Him.

Does He not also have the power to forgive? Does He not have the kindness to love? Consider also the story of Job. You know his story, right? Job was the most faith-filled man that ever existed at one point on the earth, who also happened to be very wealthy. This speaks to his character since it was Jesus Himself who stated that in Matthew 19:23, the following, "Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven." Yet God, in Job 1A states, this is Job 1A, "The Lord said to Satan, 'Have you considered My servant Job, for there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man fearing God and turning away from evil.' God Himself confirms that there is no one like Job in all the earth." Again, Job at the time in his life was considered the most blameless and upright man.

Satan then falsely states that Job was faithful to God because of his circumstances. So God allows Satan to take away his wealth, his children, his health, and even any hint of love from Job's own wife. To add insult to injury, Job's three friends come and heap accusation upon accusation on Job, exhorting him to fess up to the supposed secret sin that brought upon him all the calamities in his life.

Job rightfully cannot fess up to anything because, as we know behind the scenes, the impetus for Job's calamities were not brought upon Job because of something he did, rather it was the cosmic conversation that Satan was having with God unbeknownst to Job or anyone else on the earth. After an epic drawn out back and forth that included Job not portraying God as he should of, God answers Job out of the storm.

Listen to what God says to Job in Job chapter 38, 1-11, "Then the Lord answered Job from the whirlwind and said, 'Who is this who darkens the divine plan by words without knowledge? Now tighten the belt on your waist like a man, and I shall ask you, and you inform me.

Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me if you have understanding. Who set its measurements, since you know, or who stretched the measuring line over it? When what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone? When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Or who enclosed the sea with doors? When it went out from the womb, bursting forth? When I made a cloud its garment, and thick darkness its swaddling bands? And I placed boundaries on it, and set a bolt and doors. And I said, 'As far as this point you shall come, but no farther; and here your proud waves shall stop.'" Do you see what God is doing here?

He's introducing to Job the teleological argument, or to say the same thing yet another way, the argument from design, the argument from design. To explain it a little bit more crudely, God is saying, in essence, "Job, you seem pretty self-righteous in your understanding of who you are, and how the world works, and who I am.

So much so, that it seems like that you have a knowledge beyond yourself that I'm sure you didn't have. But since you're saying you have this knowledge that I was pretty sure you didn't have, let me ask you, where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?

I could have sworn you weren't there, but since you're acting and talking as if you know the intricacies of the world and how it works, please tell me, since you have these lofty opinions of innocence, justice, and guilt, riddle me this. Who set its measurements, since you know, or who stretched the measuring line over it?

On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone? Oh wait, I'm sorry, you're saying you don't know. So let me get this straight, Job. You don't have this vast knowledge, yet you still believe I called all things into existence. You don't know, nor do you understand all the complexities, all the elaborations of how the universe came into existence, yet you do believe I brought the universe and all that it is into existence, that I brought the universe and all of existence to be.

So you do not believe that understanding everything about the universe exhaustively is a necessary prerequisite for belief that I, God, created it. Job, if that is indeed the case, on the basis of what you do know, on the basis of what you do know, can you trust me with the things you don't know?

You don't know how the universe came into being. You don't understand it. You know I did it, and even though you don't understand it completely, you still believe that I created it. So just like you believe that, and even though you don't understand exactly why you're going through the things that you are, can you trust me, and not indict me, can you trust me with the things that you don't know?

Listen to how Job responds to God after God speaks to Job out of the whirlwind. This is Job in Job 42, 1-6, Job 42, 1-6, he says this, "Then Job answered the Lord and said, 'I know that you can do all things, and that no plan is impossible for you.

Who is this who conceals advice without knowledge? Therefore I have declared that which I did not understand, things too wonderful for me which I did not know. Please listen, and I will speak. I will ask you, and you instruct me. I have heard of you by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees you.

Therefore I retract, and I repent, sitting on dust and ashes.'" For Job, at the end, it was the appearance of God, the relationship that he had with him, that finally put everything at ease, that put all the disjointed pieces of his life together, that brought together all the pieces of his life that had no meaning, that were fragmented, but then were infused by God with purpose, design, and meaning.

One angle amongst many angles, as it relates to our discussion, is very simply the following. Based on what I do know about God, it is very easy to trust God with the things I don't, the intersection of faith and reason. The intersection of faith and reason. Based on what I do know about God, that He is good, that He is holy, that He is kind, that He is loving, that He is intentional, that He is purposeful, that He holds all things within the palm of His hand, I will trust Him even when I can't see that design for myself.

Even when I can't see that design for myself. I want to give you another example from Matthew, Matthew chapter 22, 23 to 33. Matthew chapter 22, 23 to 33, it says this. "On that day, some Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Jesus and questioned Him, saying, 'Teacher,' Moses said, 'if a man dies having no children, his brother as next of kin shall marry his wife and raise up children for his brother.

Now there were seven brothers among us, and the first married and died, and having no children, he left his wife to his brother. It was the same also with the second brother, and the third, and down to the seventh. Last of all, the women died. In the resurrection therefore, whose wife of the seven will she be?

For they all had her in marriage. But Jesus answered and said to them, 'You are mistaken, since you do not understand the Scriptures nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God?

I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.' When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at his teaching." This is, again, an example of the compatibility of faith and reason. The Sadducees, thinking they could entrap Jesus with their knowledge of Moses, came up to him and gave him a theological mind trap, or so they thought.

What's interesting is that the Sadducees did not believe in an afterlife because they only held to the books of Moses, aka the first five books of the Old Testament. Yet since they only held to that, they considered themselves experts in the first five books of the Old Testament. So Jesus' answer to the Sadducees is that they do not understand the Scriptures nor the power of God.

They do not understand the Scriptures nor the power of God. God is indeed able to raise the dead, and there is indeed an afterlife, and we are not given in marriage like here on earth, but are more like the angels. To prove to them that they do not understand the Scriptures nor the power of God, Jesus doesn't quote from outside the first five books.

And he could have. Remember, I just told you that the Sadducees only accepted the first five books of the Old Testament as authoritative. Anything quoted to them outside of the first five books, they would have unfairly just shunned away as not from God. And although had Christ done that, he still would have been in the right, we again see the intersection of grace and logic, since he does not need to answer their question in this manner, yet he does.

Jesus states that God is, as it says in Exodus 3.6, which is within the first five books of the Old Testament. Remember, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy. Jesus states that God, as it is in Exodus 3.6, he also, he said also, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." Then Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God.

I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God. Jesus very purposefully and very intentionally used Exodus, since they understood it to be authoritative and employs reason, since God made that statement to Moses.

And by the time this statement's being made to Moses, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob have long been in the ground. If God is saying that to Moses, this is very explicitly stating that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are still alive. Their flesh might be in the ground, but make no mistake about it, they are still, in a very real sense, still alive.

Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. God himself testifies in the first five books of the Old Testament that there is an afterlife, contrary to what the Sadducees believed God taught in the first five books. But as Jesus stated, they did not understand the scriptures, and by extension of that, the power of God.

That is why, when the crowds heard this, they were astonished. The true knowledge of God, cutting through the deep darkness that had tried so hard to conceal the truth of God's word. Faith and reason, grace and logic. Not only is reason compatible with faith, faith and reason are actually intertwined and work in conjunction with one another.

Let us not elevate reason to a God-like status, to the point of idolatry. At the same time, let us understand reason for what it really is, a God-given gift that separates us from the beast. Mark says us image bearers, and use this precious faculty to the potential that God has gifted to each one.

In the next episode, I'm going to address the reliability of the New Testament documents. Let us reason together to see the empirical evidence that God has so graciously left for us. Matthew 22, 34-37 states, "But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question, testing him, 'Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the law?' And he said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'" (Matthew 22) (End) (upbeat music)