(soft music) - Welcome friends to this episode of the Everyday Educator podcast. I'm your host, Lisa Bailey, and I'm excited to spend some time with you today as we encourage one another, learn together, and ponder the delights and challenges that make homeschooling the adventure of a lifetime. Whether you're just considering this homeschooling possibility or deep into the daily delight of family learning, I believe you'll enjoy thinking along with us.

But don't forget, although this online community is awesome, you'll find even closer support in a local CC community. So go to classicalconversations.com and find a community near you today. Well, listeners, I'm excited to welcome you to this episode of the Everyday Educator podcast. I know that a lot of you, like me, you either are taking or you have taken a break from working on your passions in order to homeschool in your family.

And a lot of times, let's be frank, where I am when kids grow up, we go back or we go forward to something that we want to work in. I host podcasts and I write curriculum. I have as my guest today a homeschool mom who makes movies. So I want you to welcome to the podcast with me, Sam Sorbo today.

Sam, thanks so much for being with us. - Yeah, thank you so much for having me. It's always fun to talk to fellow homeschoolers and get their perspectives on various things. So I'm looking forward to this. - This is gonna be really fun to get different perspectives from people we don't rub shoulders with every day.

I wanna give you a chance to introduce yourself to all these new friends that you're gonna make today. Tell them who you are, maybe a little bit about your family. I have lots of questions to ask you about homeschooling and your family's experience. But I also have a movie, you might've heard of it, "Miracle in East Texas" that I wanna ask you about too.

So give us a thumbnail sketch of your Sam Sorbo life. - You're so funny. Of course I've heard of my movie. (both laughing) So I was born at a very young age. I'm kidding, okay. Well, most of us were. - Fast forward to, I met my husband and he had a severe health crisis right in front of me.

And I was forced to make really a binary choice. I chose to walk away from my career because I wanted him to be healthy and I wanted a family. And I recognized that that was the choice that God had put in front of me. And I was very blessed to understand that very quickly.

And so a lot of what I do when I talk to moms especially, but really young women anywhere, is I tell them that every choice is binary. There's only the up or the down, there's the on or the off. And when you try to sit on the fence, it doesn't serve you.

You need to prioritize and then serve the highest priority with that decision. So I made that decision with Kevin. We got married, he did recover fully. It took about three years, it was a hard road. And then we had children. And I had three children and I was getting back to my career, which was as an actress.

And I had my toddler, my youngest, who didn't have very many words, but she did have the word no, run up to me when I came home from an audition one day with her little finger pointing saying, "No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no." And I picked her up and I put her on my hip and she turned to my nanny and she said, "Bye-bye." - Oh.

- And so because of my previous experience, I recognized that I had another binary choice in front of me. And I want to get parents to recognize that. You must prioritize your children, they are worth it. And when you do that, you win. It's not them who wins. - Absolutely.

- Like they win, sure, they win, absolutely. But you win to a degree that you can't possibly fathom because of our culture today. Because our culture says that children have no value. They actually, their death has more value than their lives in our culture today. It's so upside down.

And so I try to speak into culture. I'm very blessed that I have a platform because of the fame of my husband, really. And so that gets me in places and gets me in front of people and stuff that otherwise I wouldn't. But even if he didn't have that, I would be just trying to get this message out because this is the saving message of the United States.

I believe this is the message that can save freedom if we can get enough families, Christian families to homeschool for Christian children. And the reason that I say that is it's pretty simple. Children love truth right now in our schools. And I'll say our nation's schools, I will just focus on government schools for right now.

They're getting a pack of lies. They hate it, they're rebellious. They know that they're being lied to. And they are doing everything in their power to stick it to the man, to rebel against that. But if you do so little, so little in your homeschool, this little, okay, read the Bible with your kids every day.

15 to 20 minutes. I'm not talking, this is not a big lift. This is the least amount of work that you could do and still be able to say that you are being successful. It's literally this simple. Read the Bible with your kids every day. Make them understand that the Bible is truth and don't give them electronics.

That's the other caveat. They can't have electronics, seriously, no electronics. Like maybe one movie a week if you screen the movie for them kind of thing. Then your children will grow up loving truth and loving God. It's literally, and like I know I'm talking on a classical conversations platform, right?

So I'm not dissing classical conversations in any way. I'm a full-time classical conversations mom. I'm a big advocate. I speak and I advocate for classical conversations and they don't pay me. - Yes. (laughs) Well, you are with kindred spirits then. Here we all are together in that. - But I've heard, I have heard from parents that and they, and by the way, it isn't, but they think that it's too heavy of a lift.

- Oh, yes, right. - Because it appears like, oh my goodness, that's a lot. And it can be a lot if you choose for it to be a lot, but it doesn't have to be. It's fully, you can tailor it fully. So I'm not sure, but here's the thing.

Have you noticed, Lisa? People say a lot of stuff about things that they know nothing about. - And they have little experience with. - Well, yeah, 'cause they know nothing. - Yeah, exactly. - They know nothing. I was at an event two nights ago and I was talking with a, he's actually a very well-known talk show host and God bless him.

He's for school choice and he has a school that he supports and blah, blah, blah, right? - Right, right. - And he goes, but Sam, parents can't, you can't think that parents are all gonna, you know. And I said, with all due respect, and I'll shortcut it for you 'cause I'm never this rude, but because you and I are talking, I'll just shortcut it.

- Right. - I'm like, you just don't know what you're talking about. You don't have kids. You've never educated a child. Like, you just don't know. - You haven't tried it. - You're making statements, but you really don't know what you're saying because you're using the word homeschool, but you don't even have a, you have no idea what homeschooling is.

- Right. - I mean, that's really like, not every parent can homeschool. Not the way you do it. How do you homeschool again? Can you explain that to me again? - Yes, exactly. - Because they don't. - Right, they are envisioning bringing home what they knew of education when they were students.

- That's right. - And it's not that. - It's not, this is what I say. I don't even call it homeschooling because it's not school at home. That's not what it is. - Exactly, exactly. Oh my goodness, it's home-centered education. That's what we do. But people don't understand that.

Well. - I like that, home-centered, home-seated. Home-seated education because it's not centered on the home. It's just seated there. - Exactly, a lot of people think, oh, homeschoolers, they're so odd. They never leave their home and everything has to be controlled by their parent. It's all inside the four walls of their home.

And that's rare. In most cases, we are out. We are doing things. We are availing ourselves of opportunities. Home-seated or home-centered, yes. But school at home, that's the worst. - Well, school schooling's the worst. - Well, that's true. I give you that. I give you that. - But there's an explanation for why people think that homeschoolers are weirdos.

And we should excuse them for that 'cause they just don't know. - Right, they probably not met any real homeschoolers. - And you've been doing this for a while, right? So you remember probably when homeschoolers were all weird, they were all weirdos. Like, a lot of them were weirdos.

- Okay, I will tell you. I'll tell you, my 30-year-old daughter, she's 30 now, or she's, actually, she turns 30 tomorrow. When she was young, we homeschooled her the whole way, she would describe people that she met in the early days. She would find out that they went to public school or they went to private school or they were homeschooled.

And then she would look at me and she would tip her head down and she would say, but they are painfully homeschooled. And she meant they were awkward. They were socially awkward. - Right, but that's because back in the day, and we'll go back, let's go back 40 years, right?

Before you started. Back then, you were a pioneer when you chose to not avail yourself of the government schools. Either you were extremely religious, which comes with its own things, which we don't have to get into, right? Or your child was so much of a misfit, they couldn't get along.

And so it was your last resort. It was your only resort was to keep them out of the bullying and the mistreatment that the school would provide because your child was so misaligned with whatever social cues were happening in the school. And so they were weirdos when they were homeschooled.

But those days have changed, man. And now if you're homeschooled, you're part of the cool kids because it's the misfits that go to school. It's the kids who think that they can defecate in a litter box because they believe themselves to be cats. And I'm sure you've seen the meme.

There are several of them, but it's like, why do you homeschool your kids? Your kids are gonna be weirdos. And then the next frame is, yeah, your kid goes to school and thinks that he's a cat. - Right, exactly, exactly. That is very true. And now I had a friend just the other day who said that she was out with her children.

And when somebody found out that her children were homeschooled, they said, really, they're homeschooled? They're so normal. And what she meant by that was they act like regular teenagers and they are able to converse, which actually in point of fact is not normal for a lot of teenagers who are used to only interacting with people their own age.

- Well, they say, well, how are your kids gonna get socialized in school? And I go, but in school, they're taught that they have to sit at the desk and shut up and not talk to people. Where do you think they're getting socialized? And define socialized, like, what do you mean by that?

Mobs don't socialize people. It's just ridiculous. And by the way, I socialize my dog. I don't socialize my children. - Yes, I raise my children. - Yeah, and there's so many different ways of sort of combating that. But like I said, people say things about things about which they know nothing.

- Yes, you're right. You are very right. Let me ask you this. What did you always grow up thinking, oh, when I have children, I'm going to homeschool them. What convinced you that families need to be emancipated from the modern school system? What is it that is so wrong with that system?

What is it giving us that we don't need? And what is it keeping from us that we do need? - Oh, I thought you only wanted to go an hour. - Well, here's the deal. If we get too much, we'll just break it into two and have a two-part episode.

- That's a deal. Okay, so here's the thing. I, my son, my oldest son, we moved for the school. We moved to get to a better school system. And this cute little red brick elementary school that was so well appointed and it was so sweet and everything. And so he went to first and second grade.

And in second grade, there was stuff happening in the classroom that I disliked. He was coming home with an attitude that I didn't enjoy. He was only in second grade, but he was a very, very popular child. He was, in first grade, all the fifth graders, that was the highest grade in that school, they all knew his name.

He was a known entity by the end of first grade. And so I just, and then there were some issues with the teachers. I loved the teacher. She was a really sweet gal, but he had two teachers. They alternated every day. They had five disruptive children in the class, five of them.

It took her ages to get them EIPs. There were just a bunch of different things. And in fact, I wrote about them in my book there, Your Kids, because I wanted people to understand the journey that I went on to get to the point where I said to my husband at the end of second grade, I think I could fail at homeschooling and he would still be better off.

- And do better. - Yeah, it was so evident to me. And that's why I say, to boil it down, all you really need to do is 15 minutes of Bible every day with your child. Teach them to read, teach them manners. - Have conversations with them about what they're thinking.

- We're really talking the basics. And so going back to this conversation that I had with this talk show host, I said, here's the thing. Children are naturally curious. What's the first thing we tell them they have to do when they go to school? Sit down and shut up.

- Sit down and stop. - Stop asking questions. So school is the opposite of education. And he turns to me, he goes, "Sam, you just blew my mind." I go, "Yeah, because nobody thinks that way." Why? Because we all went to school, okay? We are all so school injured.

We are school injured. - Yes, yes. - Even now as parents. And so I took him out after second grade. I sent my two youngers to the lovely little kindergarten 'cause I thought, what's the harm? - Right, and them playing with other kids, right. - And I thought, they'll make friends.

This will be a good thing for them. And I've got a story about that. So I don't recommend preschool anymore. I don't recommend kindergarten. I recommend no institutionalizing a healthy child. Do not institutionalize your healthy children. It's that simple. But I'll save that story for a minute because I took my oldest out and all of a sudden, over the course of say, two or three weeks, I noticed, gee, they're getting along so much better now.

- Yes. - The shift was immediate. It happened very quickly. And then I started like doing some schoolwork with them. And it was fun. Now I get it, I'm a bit of a nerd. I like the schoolwork. Like it was fun to me. - Well, you're talking to nerds.

So we're all in that together. - But I liked doing stuff with my kids. And so if you, so, and like I said, these stories are in the book, "They're Your Kids," which really, I wrote it because I started to blog. My experience as a homeschooler, I thought if I'm gonna do this experiment, I might as well share it with other people.

So I started to blog and then eventually I put it all together in a book. And the first part of the book is the entire indictment of our school system, which goes into the history of the school system and why it is anti-American, it's anti-constitutional. Even though it's in state constitutions, it's not in the national constitution.

So I don't know why we have a Department of Education. In fact, we should call it the Department of Schooling because it's not an education center. - And that was never a national important, that was not one of the founding father's ideas for what the federal government should be responsible for.

- No, they would be rolling over in their graves. And by the way, let's point out, they were geniuses, right? They created, out of whole cloth, they created and then fought for and won the right to be the most prosperous nation in the world, sorry, the most prosperous nation in the world, which created the greatest leap in prosperity for the world, the greatest, most generous nation in the world, was created by these geniuses who, can I just point out, were all homeschooled.

- I was gonna say, who or shall we note were not publicly educated? - Right. - Oh my goodness. - So I started doing this with the kids. And so fast forward, my kids are all fierce, fiercely dipped in truth. Like they are truth seekers, they love God, they have very strong opinions.

I say that to people and they look at me like, "Well, we wonder where they got that, Sam." And I'm like, "Because," and I tell parents, "Negotiate with your children, "teach your children to negotiate, "teach your children to debate." - Yes. - And this is why people can come to me and say things that they don't know anything about as if they have knowledge because they were never taught in school what actual knowledge is.

They were given pablum and told that they were smart. They regurgitated the teacher's opinions on a test and they were given an A. And so they think they're knowledgeable about things that they're not knowledgeable. I mean, it's just ridiculous. - Yeah, yeah, absolutely. - So fast forward, my kids, I say this out loud when I speak and I talk to legislators, I talk to moms, I speak all over the country and I say to people, "I did it wrong." - Oh, yes.

- I didn't even do it right. - Right. - And it was hugely, phenomenally successful. You meet my kids and you're like, "How'd that happen? "Where'd that come from?" Because my, and they're all extraordinarily different. My oldest is the social butterfly. He knows a ton of people everywhere. I go speak at a conference and the guy sitting next to me at the conference, I get home and I tell my son, so I went and spoke at this conference and he goes, "Yeah, I know, my friend was sitting next to you." I'm like, "So you knew people at the conference "that I didn't know." - Right, right.

I know a guy. - How does that happen? - Oh, absolutely. You're just so-and-so's mom to some people. - But I can't brag too much about my kids, can I? I mean-- - Oh, sure, sure. And you can tell embarrassing stories about them. I'm sure they'll never listen to this interview, so.

- So let me, so we're talking the everyday educator, right? And we're talking to moms who are educators, or at least they're trying to be. Here's the thing, you are the curriculum. Don't make it more complicated than that. If you wanna go get books to teach your kids stuff, okay.

But here's the deal, your kids are curious. If you just guide that curiosity and then put some guard rails on it so it doesn't go off the charts in any one direction, right, they will drive their own education. Oh, you better hold on, you know. Like, let them drive their education, you hold on.

And do your kids need to learn Latin? I think that they should learn Latin. That's a tough one, right, because they're gonna argue with you. But here's the deal, there are no arguments about Latin. Latin is a pre-decided thing. There's no point in bringing it up. It's going to happen.

You will learn Latin. - Right, we're doing it. - Right, we're gonna do it. - And we're doing it together. So smile and nod. - That's right. That's right, same thing with piano. My kids, all of my kids at one point or another begged me to drop piano. Oh, we'll take up guitar as if that's like, come on.

I know what's happening there. So yes, you can certainly take up guitar. It's a perfect accompaniment for piano. And so you can learn both simultaneously, and that's a very clever idea. And guess what, the guitar never happened, but my kids all play piano, and I have one child. The other two, they're proficient pianists.

They're good, right? They are not in love with it. But I do have a child who absolutely loves it. He's traveling in Europe right now, and he reached out to me because there is a fold-up keyboard that he wants to get himself. - Oh, lovely. - That's how much he loves it.

That's how much he needs it. - And see, how would he have found that passion if you had not pressed and introduced that to him? - That's right. - So that's what we do. We're the great introducers of all the things so that our children can become proficient in some and passionate about others, but well-rounded and able to participate in all kinds of conversations.

I had one daughter who absolutely would have been happy if I had let her skip all the debate that she was ever assigned to do. And she would come home and she would say, "I've already done one. "Are you sure that I have to participate in this one?" And I was like, "Yeah, I'm sure that you do." And you were sure that you had to when you asked me that.

And she never let the record show. She never developed a passion for it. But the funniest, one of the funniest stories of our homeschooling journey was that when she went to college and got assigned to debate with a team in an art class, of all things, nobody else in the class had any idea about debate.

And she is not a natural leader and does not want to be in charge, but will fill the space if no one, if a leader does not appear, she will do it. And so she said, "Well, I mean, we have to do this debate. "We need a statement, we need our affirmations, "we need three reasons, we need to have some research "so that we're prepared to rebut." And they were all like, "What in the world?" And so she led her team through this.

And as she exited the classroom, the professor said, "Well, I can tell that you must have been a big debater "in high school because you know how to do this so well." And she was so flabbergasted. She didn't do anything but shake his hand as she exited. (laughing) And she came home and she called me and she said, "Oh, my word, what have you done?" I said, "Absolutely nothing, but look what God "has done through you." - The point of debate is not to get proficient at debate.

- Right. - The point of debate is to learn how to think and reason. - And listen. - And, right, and listen so that you, and by the way, hear the other side of things, be able to see the other side of things because one day you will need to persuade somebody of something.

And if you know how to debate, then you will be able better to persuade them of the thing that you want to persuade them of. - That's so true. - It's a beautiful, beautiful thing. - If you're not able to listen to the other person, then you're never able to dial back to where you both agreed on something.

And in order to ever persuade someone of anything, you have to find the last point of commonality, the last point of agreement, and then we're gonna walk forward, and I am hopefully going to lead you toward my position. - So you wanna know the hardest thing that I've ever done as a homeschool mom?

- What? - Debate. So I personally love debate. I never did it growing up, I had no idea, but I learned everything that I ever needed to know about debate by stoa, which is the Greek word for column, and it's a debate organization, a Christian debate organization, speech and debate, out on the West Coast when we lived on the West Coast.

So I learned everything there and through, obviously, through classical conversations, but my son loved it. He loved giving speeches and he became quite well known because that's what he does. He gets himself to be well known in those circles. My second child preferred Lincoln Douglas, and so he did a bunch of Lincoln Douglas.

And then my third child was too young out there, we moved, and so she did debate here in Florida. And for her first debate in challenge one, she was debating the death penalty and she's very, I don't know if shy is the correct word. She's an extreme introvert and she did not want to debate.

And so on the day of the debate, she stood in the hallway and sobbed. - Oh, yes. - I kid you not, she sobbed. - Yes. - And sobbed some more. Please don't make me do this, mommy. Please don't make me do this. I just don't want to do it.

I just can't do it. Now, I had arranged, because I pulled some strings and nobody minded, for her to give the one AC, which is the first part of the debate. - Absolutely. - And it is fully scripted. The only not scripted part is your cross-examination. - Exactly. - In which you're answering questions, right?

And it's the first debate, so like all bets are off as to how it's gonna go. - Right, right. They're just gonna ask you where you get your sources, so. - Right, she was in, could you repeat your first point or whatever? - Right, right. - She was in a pretty academic class and she was terrified.

And she, it took her forever, I kid you not. The whole room was silent and we were jam-packed into a small classroom with all the parents there to watch and support and whatever. And it was stifling and nobody said a thing. And I talked her through it, I'm gonna get emotional because it was very hard for me to do this.

- Yes, yes. - And I just kept saying to her, you must, you will read it, you will read it now. - That you're going to stand up there and get through it. - That's correct, and she walked up to the podium and she was crying and she turned around and walked away and then she walked back and cried some more and turned around and walked away.

I kid you not, it was agonizing. And I finally said, I'm gonna count you down. This is a trick that I shall share with parents. You don't count up, you count down. And so I said, I'm gonna count you down, here we go. Stand at the podium, three, two, one.

And I will tell you, I didn't shed a tear at the time. I'm emotional now, but at the time I was fully stoic. I was not going to let up. - Well, she had to conquer it. She had to win that day in that moment. - That's it, or she would never win.

- Right, exactly. - Or would never have, right? And she sobbed through the entire thing. She got three quarters of the way through and she sort of let up a little bit because I think she was three quarters of the way through, but then she realized that she was almost done and she broke down again and sobbed for the rest of it.

(laughs) But here's the thing, and this is what I wanna tell parents because you have to learn from this, okay? This was the hardest thing I've ever done. I'm so glad I did it. She's so glad I did it. And the next week, because we had a small class, the director decided that we would debate the opposite side the following week.

And so each team took the opposite side. And that week we were in the great big room, 'cause we got the great big room that day, and my daughter totally ruled the room. (laughs) - Good for her. - It was night and day. - Yeah. - And it's only because she powered through and she won.

- Yes, yes. And only because you as her mother loved her enough to do the hard, uncomfortable thing and stand and walk with her through the terribly uncomfortable experience so she could get to the other side and be victorious. Because you cared enough about her to do that more than anybody else would have cared about her.

- It's so hard, I'm seriously crying right now because it was so, it really was very hard. I just, yeah. - Yeah, and that's what homeschooling is all about. Helping your children do the hard things and walking hand in hand with them through the hard things till they become confident that-- - Till they can lead the way.

- Yes. - And it's such a, so this is what they hide from us, right? When you send your child to school, they don't let you see this side of the equation, like this potential, right? - Right. - My relationship with my teenagers, I tell parents, teenagers don't rebel.

Because there are certain lies that we have simply adopted and accepted in our culture. We've adopted the lie that parenting is hard. We've adopted the lie that teaching is hard. We've adopted the lie that learning is hard. And we've adopted the lie that teenagers rebel, that teenagers are rebellious.

And I will tell you, if you give your children truth, they don't rebel. - Right. - There's nothing for them to rebel against. You're gonna rebel against the truth? That's like rebelling against God. Good luck with that. - Right, that's not gonna end well. - It doesn't turn out well when you do that.

- It does not end well. - Right, so that's the beautiful thing. And when my kids were teens, my husband traveled a lot. And I would often go, in fact, because I worked from 6 a.m. to 9 a.m. every day, I did a nationally syndicated radio show while I was home educating my kid.

- Right, right. - Which is why when people say, "Well, I work." I go, "Well, that's no excuse." Do you have another one? - I know. I mean, we all work at something. - Right, so I used to go to bed quite early. I would be in bed with my laptop doing some research for the show or whatever.

And my kids, one at a time on various days, they would come knock softly on the door and come in and sit down on my bed and just sort of download their day. They just wanted to have relationship. - Yeah, exactly. - They just wanted to connect. And I would always like gently fold my computer, put it to the side and make a mental note that it was gonna be a late night for me or whatever.

- Yes. - But I would never turn them down. That was the precious stuff, man. That was the icing, that was the good stuff. And you're denied that when you send your child to school because the school comes between you and the child. - Yes. - And so there's all, and by the way, the child knows that the school is lying to them and they know that you as the parent put your child there.

- Right, that you have defaulted to that. - So you've betrayed them. - You have defaulted, abdicated your responsibility. - And it's a betrayal. And it's hard to overcome that betrayal. I had a mother in one of my conferences break down and stand up and say, "I owe my daughter an apology." And her daughter was there in the room with the granddaughter.

She said, "I have to apologize to you right now "because I really want you to homeschool your granddaughter "and I'm sorry for not homeschooling." - Yes, that. - It was an amazing thing because you can take responsibility what little responsibility you may have, right? She doesn't, it really isn't her fault that she just followed the way of the world and sent the children to school.

- Right, I mean, we didn't know that there was an option. Nobody was painting a picture that this was doable and that this was preferable and that there's a way. You didn't even know, 30 years ago, you didn't really know it was a choice for quote unquote regular people to do this.

But here's the thing, no one else did it. She is the one who did it. And so there's no shame in taking responsibility, asking for forgiveness and moving on. That's the beauty of our religion, right? Is that it's centered on forgiveness and this idea that you can seek forgiveness and you can be redeemed.

And so she sought that redemption in my conference and the daughter proclaimed that she would homeschool her little girl instead of sending her to school because she then recognized the damage that had been done to her relationship with her mother by the school. - Yes, yes. - And by the way, let's be clear.

I don't know how far this is gonna go or who's going to listen to it. I do not blame teachers. I think teachers are caught in a system. - Right. - And by and large, there are a lot of teachers who are just keeping their heads down and trying to keep their paychecks and stuff.

And I understand that. So I don't go after teachers at all. But I do go after the system and I have been quoted as saying that they do wanna have sex with your children in school. - Yeah, I know what you mean by that. - I was quoted at a school board meeting.

- Take that one out of context and run with it, yeah. - Yeah, exactly. The pornography and the grooming that is happening in our schools right now is, it's mind boggling really. I'm so disheartened by it and frustrated that parents are so uneducated, and I don't use that term lightly, but they are so schooled and not educated that they cannot see the writing on the wall.

- I do wanna let our listeners know that Miracle in East Texas is now streaming and you can use the discussion guide. You can dive deeper into the themes and the colorful characters of Miracle in East Texas. You can have some really thought-provoking conversations with your kids. You can download the free discussion guide and it's a really long link name.

So, listeners, the link is posted in the show notes. So, this is a perfect Friday night thing to do with your family this week. Stream Miracle in East Texas, download the discussion guide and have at it. Go and build some great conversations with your family. (gentle music) you