(soft music) - Welcome friends to this episode of the Everyday Educator Podcast. I'm your host, Lisa Bailey, and I'm excited to spend some time with you today as we encourage one another, learn together, and ponder the delights and challenges that make homeschooling the adventure of a lifetime. Whether you're just considering this homeschooling possibility, or deep into the daily delight of family learning, I believe you'll enjoy thinking along with us.

But don't forget, although this online community is awesome, you'll find even closer support in a local CC community. So go to classicalconversations.com and find a community near you today. Well, listeners, I'm excited to welcome you to this episode of Everyday Educator because I have a great guest with me today who is going to share with us a little bit about how homeschooling your children helps you as a parent restore your own education, but it also teaches you a lot about yourself.

And so I am excited to talk to my friend Cynthia Knotts today. You are gonna be so glad that you got to know Cynthia. She's a mom and a tutor and a musician and a violin teacher and a reader and a lifelong learner. And so she's got lots of wisdom for us.

And we're just gonna spend the next few minutes talking about what teaching children teaches us. And I'm glad that you're here to listen along. Cynthia, thanks so much for talking to me today. - Thanks for having me. - I'm excited to get to know a little bit of your backstory.

What kind of student were you growing up? Did you like school? - So yeah, I did really like school, especially in the earlier years. I'm a public school product. I walked to the elementary school a block from my house and got to walk with my older brother when I was younger.

And then I got to be the big kid and accompany my younger brother. And my parents did a really good job setting a culture of learning and education in the home. - Wow, that's cool. - Yeah, it was great. I tell them sometimes that they actually gave us a classical homeschool education and never realized it.

- Yes, didn't know what they were doing for you. - Yeah, and we supplemented that with our public education. So, but yeah, I did like school. I was usually a pretty good student on top of things, but I definitely did notice a shift as I got to high school.

Even though I still enjoyed learning, I was much more focused on getting the GPA that I thought I had to get. So I followed in the footsteps of my very bright older brother who ended up going to Harvard and put a lot of pressure on myself. So it became more about keeping the GPA when I was in high school.

- Yeah, and I'm guessing that your parents didn't put that pressure on you so much as you put it on yourself. - Yeah, not at all, not at all. - Well, what did you love to learn? I want to see how similar we are. What did you like to stay?

Or were you one of those well-rounded students who liked everything or were there things you liked the most? - I think now there's a lot more things I like than I did then. - Oh, wow, that's such a good way to have become. - Yeah, I was not always a huge fan of the science courses I took.

And I was not always a huge fan of the history courses I took. But I loved anything literature and math. I absolutely loved math. It came easily to me. I really liked it, at least up until the end. And I was, of course, always involved in a lot of music stuff.

So I think my senior year of high school, three of my seven courses were music-related. I was in band orchestra and I took a music history class. - Oh, wow, so you found your passion and your love and you pursued it. That's really good. Do you remember, how did you, 'cause I was a product, I am a product also of public school education.

And one of the things that I remember about my high school was that subjects were fairly compartmentalized. I mean, we hardly ever talked about history in science class. And I don't remember talking about anything but math in my math class. So there were very much watertight bulkheads. What about for you?

- I would say mostly that was true. Maybe not always completely. There would be some things that would come up here and there. - Yes. - But yeah, I mean, different teacher for every course. And yeah, it was mostly compartmentalized, maybe not airtight. - Right, right. So in your high school, did you, was it mostly lecture that your teachers mostly gave you notes that you took or did you do a lot of discussing?

Was it a lot of reading? What method? - It really depended on the teacher. - Yes. - I do remember some classes and actually sometimes it would depend on the day. I remember a history class I had where, yeah, some days we would walk in and the entire chalkboard was filled with notes.

- Oh my word, I had that same teacher. (laughing) - So he would talk through what he had already written on the board. I don't know how long it must've taken him. - Oh my word, yes. - But he would talk through it and we would copy it down and it would be a lecture.

But then another day we would come in and all the desks would be circled up and we would have a much more conversational day in the classroom that day. So with that teacher, it was a mixture. - That's cool. - With other teachers, yeah. With other teachers, it was probably more lecture heavy with the occasional conversation thrown in.

And then I remember my AP English teacher had us do this mysterious thing that he called Socratic circles. - Oh my goodness, a precursor to your classical education. - Yes, yes, but it was great. Senior year, AP English, reading some really good literature and that class was a lot more conversation heavy.

- Uh-huh, uh-huh. Well, let me ask you this. So you had a little bit of lecture, a little bit of discussion, a little bit of Socratic circles. How did you learn best? What was your favorite learning style or the most effective for you? - I would say probably conversation.

Lectures, I think I would get too caught up with trying to write all the things down. - Yes. - And reading, well, it would depend on what I was reading. - Sure, sure. - If it was a dry history text, it might just kind of wash over me. - Yes, passing your eyes over the words.

- I would just look for the bold print. - Yes, chapter headings and section headings. - Yes, let's just get through this. - But in a conversation or if it were a teacher who was just very passionate about what they were talking about and getting really excited, even if it was a lecture style, having that excitement would really catch my attention.

- Yes, that's so true. I did, I had a history teacher who got very excited about her subject sometimes and to the point where you wondered is she gonna, she would sometimes draw students into her hands-on history learning and it could be a little intense, but she really did make you think and really did draw you into the subject.

I think I would agree with you. I liked conversational learning the best too. So being the product of a public school education, what drew you and your husband, Tim, to homeschooling? - It was a few things. Initially, it was seeing families in our church who were homeschooling. It was probably about a half and half split when we were dating, engaged, newlywed.

And there were enough that were homeschooling that we could see what the kids were like and what was going on. Tim was much more hesitant about homeschooling than I was. - Isn't that funny? My husband was too. What was Tim's hesitation? - Oh, homeschoolers are weird. - Yes, yes, yes, yes.

- So, but there were not very many when we were growing up. I knew a few and they were mostly kids who were pretty serious about music and needed more time to practice. - Gotcha. - Which has its own level of weirdness. - Right, right. But that was a different kind of concern, maybe, than what would, 'cause you don't know about your kids yet when you're just considering them.

- Oh, yeah. - Just all academic thought. - Yeah, so we got to see it in action. And there was one family in particular that had been very, they had been mentors to us all through our dating and our engagement. And Gustav actually composed my bridal march for me.

- Oh, how lovely. - Yeah, so they were really close friends and I was involved in Bible study with Nancy and they were classically homeschooling their, at the time, four kids or three kids and a baby. And being in Nancy's house for Bible study on Friday mornings, we would start our study early, 6.30, and the kids would get up.

Actually, I think she usually had the nursing baby and then the kids would come up and get up and come downstairs and pull out their copywork and their cursive and just get right to work. And so I was seeing this happen in the house and I was intrigued and she was very much a user of the "Well Trained Mind" book.

- Yes, yes. - So that was really our introduction to classical homeschool was watching this one particular family and seeing the culture in their home. - That's really cool. I can see how that lifestyle that you saw would be really appealing. So did you know a lot about classical education beyond the lifestyle that you saw in your friends before you really started homeschooling yourself?

- Not really a whole lot. - Yeah. - No, I mean, I knew that it had to do with Greeks and Romans and Latin. And probably because once again with my parents setting this kind of classical education sneakily in our house growing up, we read things about ancient Rome and ancient Egypt and the Greek gods and all this stuff.

So I knew it had something to do with that, but not much more. - Yep, so how did you find out more about classical education? - Well, my sister actually was already homeschooling her kids, both of my sisters homeschooled their children and in different styles and neither one a believer.

But my oldest sister who was a, she was a classics major in college was pursuing a classical education at home with her kids. And so I was picking up a little bit from her and seeing what they were doing and she handed some resources to me. And both of her kids ended up going to Boston Latin for high school, which is a pretty prestigious Boston high school.

I was like, huh, well, she must be doing something pretty good with them. And then once again, through this family, starting to learn more about what they were doing. And then I read "The Well-Trained Mind" and then I went and visited a CC campus. - Okay. - And I was hooked.

I was hooked very quickly. My oldest Adele was just shy of four. So yeah, it was a couple months before her fourth birthday. And my friend, a couple of my friends from church were involved in this new thing in central Connecticut and invited me to go observe. I think it was the final week of the semester of the year, week 24.

- Oh wow, yeah. - And so I took Adele and my toddler and my three month old, two month old nursing baby. - Oh my goodness, oh my goodness. - We walked in and sat there for the new grammar in foundations. And one girl was, I think was preparing for memory master.

She was only five and my jaw was dropping listening to her recite the first 12 elements of the periodic table. - Uh-huh, yep. - But what actually, what actually struck me there was how much like Suzuki violin this was. - Oh. - And I was like, I like this, I want this.

Let me wait one more year because I've got lots of little kids right now. So I waited one more year and then we started and I might be getting ahead in your questions here, but I started tutoring. - That's okay. - I started tutoring right off the bat. So first year in, I was tutoring and I was newly pregnant with number four.

- Oh my goodness. (laughing) Okay, so what made you want to tutor right away and what gave you the shot in the arm? Because, you know, Cynthia, that's a lot to take on, pregnant with all these little kids. What made you want it that badly? - Well, first of all, I didn't know yet, I don't think I knew yet about being pregnant when I got asked to tutor.

So that came a very short time later. But no, my friend was directing. It was her first year directing and she needed another tutor and she already knew me. We go to church together and I don't think I was teaching her daughter violin yet, but she knew that I taught violin.

And so she, for some reason had some confidence in me that I would be able to do this. And I was really curious and I was willing to help out because I knew I wanted to do this. And I went to practicum and was very confused about all these new things I was hearing, but I was excited to do it.

- And I remember the first practicum I ever went to. And it was so long ago that it was nothing like practicum is now. It was so long ago that it was me and 23 other women sitting in a second story, un-air-conditioned Sunday school room with Lee talking for six hours, it felt like straight, making swiggle marks all over the whiteboard, so excited.

And I came home and I know how you feel. My head was spinning. There were all these new words and there was all this new enthusiasm. And I was drawing little, no lie, math diagrams on a cocktail napkin to my husband. And he's like, "What has happened to you that you were talking to me about math?" So I understand practicum can make you excited to do big, hairy, audacious things.

And you don't realize that you're doing something very compelling, but maybe, like you would say, in over your head. But were you in over your head? Did you love tutoring? - Oh yeah, I did. I mean, I was so nervous that first day. - Yes, of course, 'cause it's new.

- Yeah, it was new, but I was used to that feeling because each year when I would start up my new violin group class, and sometimes it would be five or six little four-year-olds or something, and I would still be nervous the first time. So I knew I would get over that.

- Well, that is good. So you knew that you just had to jump in and start in order for it to ever get better, yeah. What did you like about tutoring in those early days? - Well, see, I tutored the Abecedarians my first year in, Adele was five, and then my son was in the toddler room, and I think my one-year-old by then was in the nursery.

And those little kids are just so cute. - Yes. - Oh my goodness. They are so cute. - And so enthusiastic. - Yes, and so I just loved working with them. I actually kind of loved the challenge for anybody who's ever tutored an Abecedarian class, the little four and five-year-olds.

I love the challenge of trying to introduce their memory work in ways that their little mouths can just wrap around these big words and remember these big words. So sometimes it means coming up with hand motions that have nothing to do with what the thing actually means. It's just what the word sounds like.

- Right, and it's something they can hold on to, yeah, yeah. - So I love that creative challenge. - I wanna ask you this question, and it's not so much because I think that you worried about it, but I have talked to a lot of parents on my campus through the years who weighed should I tutor, should I not tutor, and I've had lots of people worry that the time it would take to prepare, the time it would take to tutor in community would take too much time away from teaching their own kids.

Did you ever worry that tutoring would take something away from your own children? - Not, well, yes and no. - Uh-huh. - I think it's always been something that I've considered, but at the same time, I've never known CC without tutoring. - Yes, yes. - Really, we just need to get people in the classroom right away, and then they'll never know.

(laughing) - Then they don't know that there's any other way. - Yeah, no, I mean, it has been something that I've considered, but probably much more when I did step up into challenge. - Mm, okay. - But at the same time, I know myself, and I know that if I am having to do my own personal prep, I'm going to be so much more on top of what my kids have to be doing.

And so I did foundations for seven years, I think. - Wow, yes. - And yeah, and then I added essentials. So then I did both foundations and essentials for two years. And once I started tutoring essentials, I noticed myself being much more on top of the material with my own kids, not only being able to teach it better to them at home, but being on top of what the assignments were or what I wanted them to accomplish at home, what was really important and what was extra.

- Oh, that's really good. That is really good. I think it does give you a nice perspective on what's important and what you could scale, what's essential and what you could scale. And it also, I think tutoring helps you see it from both sides of the fence. Like you know what it is to present the material, but also you're doing it at home with your own kids.

So you know what it looks like from mama's side of the desk too. So that's kind of cool. So let me ask you this. And I know you just alluded to the fact that you have tutored foundations and essentials, but you're a challenge tutor now, correct? - Yes. - And so how is that different?

How is that different preparation wise? And when you made the switch to tutoring challenge, did you worry again that your increased preparation time would rob your own family? - Yes, and probably more when I made the jump up because I'd been doing foundations for so long. It was, I had it down to just a very quick prep because I was so familiar with how it all worked and then I could spend more time with essentials, which was my newer thing.

But yeah, that was definitely a big concern. But once again, I knew that it would help me be more on top of things. So my oldest had already done challenge A and challenge B. And then when she moved up to one, I graduated from foundations and essentials in our community and moved up to challenge one to be with her.

And honestly, I think I probably could have been a much better teacher to her at home in challenge A and challenge B than I was. Of course, I think that happens with a lot of our oldest. - It does, they're just guinea pig. She just, have you not made the apology yet to Adele?

- Oh, I'm so all the time. She actually told me to stop it. - You were my guinea pig and you just got whatever you got and I'm sorry. - And she's like, stop saying that, you're fine. You're doing fine. - Oh, that's so good though. But yeah, I mean, being in the challenge one class with her, I was much more involved and maybe not sitting down and doing all the work next to her, but I was much more aware and much more involved in knowing what was going on and what the expectations were.

And yeah, it was good, it was really good. - Well, and you knew what it took you to learn and master that material. So you actually did know better what you were asking of her as a student, since you were preparing yourself. - Yes. - What kind of lessons have you learned from tutoring?

- Oh, lots. Well, I've learned how to be a better teacher to my kids, knowing what's coming up. So when my oldest moved into challenge A and B, and I was already getting a taste of what those challenge years had to offer, and that helped me, that actually changed the way I approached some things with my essentials and my foundations students.

And then once again, once I was tutoring and directing and getting all the extra benefits of those through training and conversations with my SR and being mentored by people like Heather Lee Sylvia and Jennifer Devorex and Stephanie Wilburn, all these people who had such more years of wisdom. And I had access to all these things as a challenge director.

It helped me even better go back to my foundations and essential students to teach them in a much more directed way. - Yeah, that's really key. That's really insightful too. You know how to help your students prepare when you know what they're preparing for. And you know where all of these building blocks, you know how the building blocks are being assembled and what they're gonna end up looking like.

And so, yeah, it does make you a more comprehensive mom and comprehensive teacher because you know what's happening. What has been your favorite aspect of tutoring? What's been the best aspect of tutoring? I mean, any kind of tutoring, foundations, essentials, challenge, you're superwoman and have done it all. So what's the best aspect of tutoring for you?

- Definitely not superwoman. But that's hard to pick a best one. - Yeah. - I might have to go with two that are coming to mind first. One is really, I mean, as I said at the beginning, I really did enjoy learning as a kid. I still enjoy it now.

And so getting to learn all this stuff, either relearn it and be reminded of it or learn it for the first time or learn it a whole lot better than I did is really cool. And with all the challenge reading that I'm trying to do to be on top of it as a director, I'm loving going back and being quote forced to read these books, but they're so good.

- Yes. - Or dig into things that I never got in my education growing up. So I love the whole redeeming my own education. But then my other thing that came to mind immediately when you said that was those little Abecedarians in presentation time, you just cannot beat that.

They are just so delightful. And I think I was just the most amused and entertained and just loving those little kids during presentation time. Just hearing the things that they would bring in and they're all smiles and all excitement. And I nearly had a big frog jump on me once and it was just very entertaining.

And the costumes that they come up with, I just love those little littles. They're really neat. - They are really fun. And just like, one of the reasons we decided to homeschool is because I really loved seeing all those light bulb moments. I liked being the one that watched my little girl's eyes light up when they made a connection for the first time or figured something out.

And it was so much fun to watch students really of any level, because I tutored Challenge B for almost 10 years. And watching B students do a proof and logic for the first time and realize that they had connected all the dots and gotten it right was the biggest buzz for me and to watch them succeed, to watch them do a mock trial and feel really confident and come through that with such flying colors and watch their confidence grow was such a high for me as a tutor.

I think that it is a blessing for all of us who get to tutor. - Yeah, there's so many, so many neat things about it. And now that you're saying that just so many more things are coming to mind, but I can't say all of them. - But say another, say another if you've thought of it.

I would love to hear it. - So being in Challenge II this year with my oldest, there's these magical things that happen in Challenge II as they start to get their feet under them as young adults and thinking more deep thoughts. And so in the past few weeks, I've been able to sit back and enjoy some of the conversations that they're taking over and talking about things like does every story have to have a moral?

Well, what is a moral? How do we know what the moral is? - Uh-huh. - Yes, I told them in Aesop's Fable and I said, "Well, tell me what the moral is." And they came up with several answers. So I gave them this snarky response that, "Well, really what we learned from this is that "you should look for the suckers in the world "and take advantage of them by flattering them." And they all immediately said, "No, that's not right." (laughing) Which that helped us.

- Yeah. - It helped us to better define what a moral is and that it has to be leading us towards virtue. So it was really neat to see them grapple with that. And a week or two before that, they were talking about salvation and God's sovereignty in that.

And it was just really neat to see these big things coming from them. - That is so encouraging. I would say, listeners to all of you out there who are thinking, "Well, gosh, this sounds good. "Maybe I should tutor." I would tell you that you will learn so much.

Well, in two ways. You will learn so much from the preparation that you do so that you are prepared to lead great conversations on community day. But you will learn so much from your students who will, no matter how well you prepare, who will come up with something you never thought of before or ask a question that you didn't plan the answer to, and they will get to watch you grapple on the spot.

Okay, so maybe that doesn't sound like a good reason to tutor, but I'll tell you that it feels good to wrestle with a big question alongside your students that you have built a relationship with. And the best thing that you will ever teach them is that you are continuing to do the hard work of learning new things too.

- Yes, definitely, definitely. See, modeling for them, the struggle it is, the struggle it is to learn something new or to figure out what you think about something that you haven't had time to think about before seminar is so good for them because they need to know that we don't have all the answers and we're still working.

We're still trying. - Yes, and that it's okay that we don't, I never, and it was difficult for me because I'm one of these type A people that like everything, like I don't like to do something I don't already know will be successful 'cause it just bothers me. And so I had to get over myself when I became a challenge tutor because they are gonna ask me a question that I don't know the answer to or that I don't know the answer to yet.

And so I love the whole idea that we are teaching them that your whole life is about continuing to learn. And the best learner is somebody who is comfortable with not knowing yet. And so I think that what teaching children taught me is that there's always more to learn and that we can learn a lot from one another if we'll just have a conversation.

- I love it. Let me ask you, I have one more question for you. If you can stand one more question for me, Cynthia. What has a classical education given your family? - There can be a lot there in that answer. I think I'll have to pick and choose here.

I would say it's given us a direction in our family culture. We've always valued certain things in our family and both Tim and I grew up with parents who loved us and cared about us and cared about our education. And so we've been fortunate to bring some of those things into our family.

So we've always had way too many books for our bookshelves. - Yes, us too, yep. - Conversations around the dinner table and things like that. But I think the classical education kind of helps tie some of that together and it helps flavor the culture that we have in our home, in the Knotts household.

I'm also so thankful that I'm married to somebody who is totally in and I mean, even more than supportive, he takes on the reins, he does so much. I mean, he's very involved and I know not everybody has quite that level of support in their homes and I'm really thankful for it because when we gather together as a family, we can talk all these nerdy things.

- Yeah, and everybody be happy. - Yes, to steal my friend Heatherly's hashtag that she likes to use, we're nerds raising nerds. - That's right, that's right. - We're creating our nerd culture. - Yes, yes, I have frequently been sad that our family does not live close to your family 'cause then we could be nerds together.

- Well, come on up for a visit. - That's right, you come on down, I'll come on up. We'll have high old time. Well, I really appreciate you sharing. I really wanted folks to hear what a homeschool mom who's fully invested in tutoring thinks about this classical education and thinks about being a tutor, but I was really interested in people hearing what you have learned about yourself and your children and education by being a tutor.

So I appreciate you sharing tonight, Cynthia. - Can I give another encouragement to anybody who is considering? You don't have to know all the things, you don't. And I'm not just talking about the surprise questions that the kids might bring up that we talked about earlier, but really another thing that you can learn how to do is you learn your limits and you learn your capabilities and you can learn what is the important stuff that I do need to arm myself with to go in to have a successful day in seminar.

And you really don't have to think that you have to know all the things 'cause trust me, you don't. You've got time to continue learning alongside your children. You don't have to learn everything before them. You can learn alongside them and secret, you can even learn behind them. And it's okay because it's the attitude of being that lifelong learner.

So don't let the academic load scare you off because you're gonna be armed with great tools like definition, comparison, those five common topics. And it's doable. It's a good thing, it's hard work, but it's very good work. - Oh, that's a great encouragement. Thank you for sharing that. Parents, I hope that you feel encouraged.

I hope that you are perhaps newly interested in pursuing life as a tutor in your local community. Whether you are looking to be a tutor or just looking to build a family culture of learning and ways to have more enjoyable conversations in your own home, I've got a reminder to you that we have something called the Copper Lodge Library, Classical Conversations publishes.

And there are some new additions to the Copper Lodge Library coming out this spring. We will have our own version of Pride and Prejudice, our own imprint of Pride and Prejudice, the Secret Garden, and the Secret House. The Garden and a brand new offering called English Epic Poetry. So why does Classical Conversations offer the Copper Lodge Library?

They are collections of stories that have built community throughout history. And we put them in a beautiful series of books that you can enjoy for the whole family. You can begin to build that family culture of reading and learning that Cynthia was talking about by reading these stories together and having really good conversations about wisdom and virtue.

So check out the Copper Lodge Library. You can check out all of our offerings on ccbooks.com. And those three books, Pride and Prejudice, the Secret Garden, and English Epic Poetry are new this spring. So you'll be able to look for them soon. Cynthia, thank you again for this lovely conversation.

And listeners, I will see you next time. Bye bye. (gentle music) (music fades)