All right, we're continuing, Melissa and I are continuing the conversation that we began the other day. I am talking with Melissa Ellison, homeschool mom with experience, which is also always such a valuable thing to say to people who wonder how in the world am I ever going to do this?

And I'm so pleased to hear Melissa from people who have done it and survived and have a little bit of experience under their belt. What you were telling me just a few minutes ago was that community has been a big part of an important and big part of your homeschool journey.

And I imagine that this good community plays into the next question I'm going to ask you, but I think that your answer to this question might set a lot of early homeschoolers minds at risk. Okay, I want to ask you this. How do you think a classical education has impacted your kids or prepared them for life?

That's a loaded question, and I want you to answer really honestly. I think I have to admit that at first, once they got to that dialectic stage and they were wrestling with ideas and making things their own, I struggled a little bit with that because it's a little scary because you're like, "What if they don't have the same values or opinions or whatever?

They don't come to the same conclusions as you do." And so that was a practice in trusting God, too, with them. So I think as far as preparing my kids, the biggest things that I've seen with my children are they love to learn, at least most of them. They just love to learn, and they're continually learning.

I remember, too, when they went to college, they were so much more prepared for presentation wise. I mean, they weren't nervous getting up in front of a class. They were very well-spoken. They were confident. And I even remember Sarah in high school being part of the young Republican committee or whatever in our county, and she went and spoke for a couple of candidates for a local state elections and people would be like, "Aren't you nervous?" And I mean, she literally would almost just get up there, not even have to prepare that much, and she was not nervous and very well-spoken and loved it because it was a passion of hers because she ended up going to Patrick Henry and majoring in political science.

So that was something that she loved. And so that was a big thing that I saw. And also, they knew how to find answers. They knew how to research, how to find an answer for something, and knew how to read original documents, which a lot of kids don't know anymore how to do.

And then, too, I think being able to be confident in what they believe and being able to convey that to others. I see that a lot, especially with even my youngest child, who is just very on fire for God. And he is not ashamed of the gospel, which is a beautiful thing, right?

But he talks to other people, and he is not. And he can express himself, and he has a passion, and you just don't see that a lot, I don't think, with kids. You know, they're swayed by other kids, they're swayed by, you know, and they don't know what they believe.

And so I think that's one of the biggest things. Gosh, that is such a great thing. Amen, sister. What a blessing for families who are just beginning the homeschool journey. I understand that for a lot of us, when we start, it's about academics. We wonder, "Can I teach a child to read?" And then, "Can I teach a child to write a paper?" And "Can I teach a child to do geometry?" We start out because that's what we're programmed to think that school is all about.

And that homeschooling is school at home, but it's not. Homeschooling is about growing your child into the person that God has designed them to be. It's so much more than academics. So I'm so happy that you brought out how classical education impacts "real life," that it's more than academics.

The whole idea that you are raising a child who knows the Lord, who knows what they believe, and has examined it, that's what I love about our CC program and classical education. It causes you to ask questions and to push back and to examine all the angles of every subject and every argument.

And the truth is that God is plenty big enough and strong enough to stand up to any questions our children will ever ask. And so we need to be okay with them asking questions and pushing against, "I want my children, I always wanted my girls to push against the fate they had been brought up in while they were at home so that I could pray for them and I could shepherd their hearts, not just their brains." Yes, you are so right, because they have to make it their own.

And that's the only way they're going to make it their own, right? Absolutely. Yes. And I loved it that you said that part of what classical education gave to your children was the ability to think through issues and to be confident in their beliefs and then be really sure in the way they conveyed their beliefs.

Yeah, and that's the rhetoric, right? That's what we want them to do. And if I can tell us one story, Sarah, I think she was only in challenge A. I think it was challenge A, where they do the debates with – because it's been a while, but with the different issues and they take either side, you know, like abortion and – Yeah, we did it in big.

We did it in big. Well, that's probably B, okay. And so she had gone through that and then she and her grandmother got on the topic of abortion and unbeknownst to me, I think I was away at a state manager or something or other and I got a phone call from Sarah later, but her grandmother was, you know, for abortion in the sense that not for killing babies, she said, but just because mothers should have the choice and, you know, what if this happened or what if, you know.

And Sarah just logically went through and presented to her grandmother what it says in God's Word and, you know, what she had researched and her grandmother wrestled with it and her grandmother came back a day or two later and said that she lost sleep. She talked to her girlfriends about it, but she changed her mind.

She said, "Sarah, you changed my mind." And I said to her, I said, "It wasn't Sarah who changed your mind." I said, "It was God, but God used her, but she, I mean, it was a beautiful example of, you know, the classical model, right?" And so it was just, it was one of those moments that it just was like, wow, you know, that you could see in real life.

That is so powerful. That is a really powerful testimony, Melissa, for real, because to think that a classical education can equip your children to winsomely present the truth is powerful medicine. That's great. And what challenges me? They're like what, 13, 14 years old? Yeah, 12, 13 years old, 13 years old, yeah.

I am amazed. That's really awesome. And I love what you said that the classical education taught them how to find answers, taught them how to ask. One thing that I absolutely love, classical education has taught my girls to ask questions, to never be afraid to ask questions. And they are constantly, they do not take statements at face value.

They had way too much logic to do that. They will always ask a question, "Well, okay, so it's kind of like the debate thing, what are your sources? Why do you say that?" And if that's your conclusion, but your premises are not leading to that, then I'm suspicious and I need you to tell me more.

They are not gullible. I guess that's what I'm saying. I'm happy that a classical education has made my girls very un-gullible. They're very wary. And like you said about your children, they are very confident in what they believe and they are confident in sharing what they believe. And that has been beautiful.

And I know that some parents are probably thinking, "Yeah, well, some kids are just like that and some kids are not." I'm telling you, I had one that was born ready to debate everybody and one who would rather not ever and before every challenge debate ever asked if she really had to do it.

She did not enjoy it. It is not her personality to be confrontational and she doesn't like to be in front of people. She really is a follower at heart, but a classical education gave her the tools of leadership and the feeling of responsibility to step into a leadership gap if there is one.

She will absolutely step into that gap and she will absolutely talk about what she believes and why and make a very firm argument. And so I feel blessed. So it's not just the kids who are naturally debaters that benefit from a classical education. It is all of our children.

Absolutely. Let me ask you, what has homeschooling taught you about your children? Oh, let's see. Well, I think being with your kids day in and day out, 24/7 really, I think you learn a lot about them. They learn a lot about you. Oh my goodness, and that's the scary part.

But I think that ultimately, you see their personalities, but you also see where they can overcome things. Like you said, what about that child that's just really introverted and shy? My one who wouldn't stand up and do a presentation because he was so shy, to work through those things with them and with God's help and encouraging them to take that step.

And so I think you really do see those things, but it's not only seeing them, it's learning to live with each other. It's learning to overcome things that you may be struggling with. I think one reason a lot of us homeschool too is to instill a biblical worldview, godly values in our children.

Being able to, on a daily basis, impart that to our kids if they're struggling, let's stop and pray about this, or just being able to be with them day in and day out. It can be hard, but it's also a beautiful thing when you look back on it. Not every day is roses and sunshine for sure, but when you look back, to me, it was just a wonderful blessing from God to be able to be with them and to see them grow and embrace and to impart our godly values to them.

I don't know if I've answered your question, really. Oh, yeah. I think you answered it at the beginning when you said, "Yes, we see the good, the bad, and the ugly." And they see it about us. That is true. I think we get to know our children in really unique ways because we see how they respond to being stretched.

We see how they respond to doing easy things and to doing hard things. We see them when they are... Lee used to say, "We're all just little sinners running around, and so are our children." So we saw their little sinner moments, and then we saw the moments where God was really refining them.

And I think you're right. It knit our hearts together in ways that would be difficult to do if we only saw each other a few hours a day. And I do think, although I was rarely happy for my children to see the negative sides of me, we don't want our children to know that we have feet of clay.

They do grow up and realize it when they're teenagers, but when they're little... And I can remember times where I just had to go and apologize to my children. I would stand outside myself and hear what I was saying and cringe, and just think, "Wow, that is absolutely not the lesson I would tell anybody to teach, and here it is what I have passed on." I think it is beautiful when God lets us see how a mistake that we have made and apologized for has been rectified and become a triumph.

That is beautiful. Definitely. I can remember when I was... I didn't do every assignment with every child every year, but one year one of my daughters and I were going to do chemistry, we were doing chemistry together. And hey, I have to say that the CC chemistry is more chemistry than I ever did in high school and it was a really long time ago, so I was struggling.

I was struggling with some of that stuff and I was busy and I frankly had a bad attitude about chemistry and I didn't really want to be doing that. I had other things to do. And I can remember sitting with her and she was confused about how to do the math of some of the chemistry.

And I can hear myself now saying to her, "You just went to class. You learned how to do this and Ms. Carrie showed you this in class. It was her job to teach this to you before you came home. So did she not teach it or did you not learn it?

What is the problem here?" And my daughter was stricken and I heard that and it's that kind of reverb over and over. And I thought, "Oh my gosh, I've spent all these years telling parents that we're responsible for our children's education, not their tutors." And so I just had to say to her, I said, "Okay, honey, I'm really sorry.

I have to apologize. I was making this. It is not Ms. Carrie's job to be your teacher. Mama is your teacher and if you are having a problem, then it's my job to help you solve it." And I said, "Here's the truth. I don't remember how to do this and it's math and I don't remember how to do this.

So I think you need to go and ask Daddy, the math minor, 'Oh no, don't make me ask Daddy, please don't make me ask Daddy.'" And so I was like, "Okay, fine." With a bit of bad grace, I said, "Fine. I will get Daddy to teach me and then I will teach you." I said, "Because it is our job." I said, "Actually, Sarah, it's your job to learn, but it's my job as your homeschool teacher to help you learn." So we did it.

Daddy taught me, I taught Sarah, we were all good. And I thought, "Okay, that lesson's over. I don't have to think about that again." And I didn't think about it for years until she went to college and ended up in a photography class that it was like the second level and she was having problems.

And I said, "Honey, why are you in this class? Because you didn't have the prerequisite." She said, "Oh, my advisor said it was fine and I started again." "Well, your advisor, that's her job. She ought to know better than that and you just need to drop it and go take the other class." I said, "Yeah, I'll take care of it." So weeks went by and I had forgotten to ask her about it and I said, "Did you drop that class?" She said, "No, mama." I said, "Why?" And she said, "Well, I could tell what it was that I didn't know.

It was a bunch of grammar. It was all the stuff that I would have gotten. The stuff that I would have gotten in the prerequisite class was a bunch of grammar." And she said, "So I knew that's what I was missing. So I just went online and I found it and I wrote it out and I taught it to myself and I'm fine now because mama, it's my job to learn." Good for her.

Wow. I was so flabbergasted. She's telling me this on the phone and I'm just crying thinking, "Okay, so she internalized that last lesson, but I'm still learning it." So that's what I learned about my children is that praise the Lord, sometimes they learn the lessons faster than I do.

Yup. Yup. And that they are teachable spirits and that is just a beautiful thing. So that's something that homeschooling taught me about myself that I still live in the flesh sometimes. What does homeschooling taught you about yourself, Melissa? I do too, Lisa. And it really showed me the gaps in my education because I see, even to this day, I still struggle with asking questions and being confident and because I didn't grow up that way.

It was basically input and output. Your teacher got you something, you memorized it, you spit it out on a test and got straight A's and then you totally forgot it and you didn't process anything. You didn't make it your own. You didn't go through that dialectic stage at all, really.

And so, I really saw the gaps in my education and to see where my children are much better equipped and not only with education, not only educationally, but in all aspects of life because I love that they make things their own and that they ask questions and they don't just take what someone else says at face value and those kinds of things.

So I really did see the gaps in my education, for sure. And obviously, too, I am a center saved by grace. All those things that you mentioned really set our kids up to learn for a lifetime that the habit of asking probing questions and examining something from a bunch of different directions that the encouragement to push back against ideas and not just accept them, the whole encouragement to chase their curiosity.

I think that's what homeschooling and classical education does. It gives you permission to chase your passion and to pursue that curiosity. And that does set us up well to learn for a lifetime because we feel like we can chase our curiosity and know how to research and find an answer.

I think that's kind of fun. I mean, I'm sure you are, too. I'm just thankful that I was able to reclaim some of my own education because I was teaching my children. I think that has been a big blessing for me and for David, that we have reclaimed a lot of what we were never taught and then reclaimed a lot of what we forgot because we had nothing to hang it on.

We didn't have a file folder to put that in, and so it didn't get saved. One of the things that I've loved about reclaiming my education is seeing the connections between things. There was nobody who really tried to tie it all together, especially in high school. You have a different teacher for every subject and they act like they're the only teacher and their subject doesn't touch any other one.

So that has been a great reclamation for us, I think. What habits, so think about habits that you and your kids and your husband, too, what did y'all practice or what habits did you develop as you homeschooled? I would say some of the habits would be reading together. All my children love to read, but the practice of reading together and reading God's Word together, which I love, and what other habits would there be?

Research, going to the library and doing research together was something, too, that I remember doing on a regular basis and you're having me pull way back in my brain. I know. I know. I just think it's so valuable. We talk a lot about, you know, we've started talking in CC about the five core habits.

There were a lot of habits that we've all practiced with our kids and in our families for years that go beyond the five core habits. So I just wondered, you know, what habits you have. Maybe just spending time together, you know, whether it's sitting around the breakfast table reading God's Word and praying for the day, or if it's going on a nature walk, you know, or whatever it is, you know, it's spending that time together.

And the kids spending time together, too, when they're little, you know, like you were saying when we were talking about, you know, the benefits, what do we see, the benefits of having all of our kids at home and homeschooling them, you know, not only do they, we as parents get to spend time, they spend time with each other and they see, they learn to interact with each other because, you know, you always tell them, "Oh, well, you can pick your friends but God gave you your family." And so you need to learn to love and forgive and live with and, you know, your family because they're going to always be there, you know, because sometimes you might have a friend that you have a falling out with and you never see them again or talk to them again kind of thing, which isn't a good thing, I'm not saying that, but your family, you know, you're living with them and you've got to learn to work through those things.

It's that sanctification process, right? I love that conflict resolution. That's right. It's a great habit to practice, and you're right, it's sometimes the first, the family is where we either learn to do that well or learn to avoid it. And so, yeah, absolutely, that's a great habit to pursue.

When we, I'm thinking about both when the girls were little and as they grew, we tried to develop the habit of serving, and when they're really little, I mean, we tried to encourage them to serve one another or to serve somebody in our family or to serve our family.

So like, yeah, I mean, you're not going to get an allowance for setting the table because you are serving our family. You're serving the family like mama serves the family by cooking dinner and daddy serves the family by bringing wood in for the fireplace. You are serving the family when you set the table.

And so then we practice serving other people, you know, like doing something for a shut-in neighbor or visiting the nursing home with our church group or something. So serving... That's a great one, yes, we are big on that, too. Yeah, we played outside a lot. The girls played outside a lot.

We did not do, and admittedly, my kids grew up when screens were not much of a thing. But a lot of them, there were handheld games then and there was TV, but we did not, we didn't do screens. They played outside. School day was over that I would turn that and I discovered later that what they mostly played outside was whatever we had been reading or studying about.

They made pirate ships and they made castles and prairie houses and brick ovens out of bricks and a aluminum foil and all kinds of stuff. So we played outside a lot. That was a habit. We did like you, we read a lot together. We had the habit of praying together every night and every morning as a family and said that was good.

And even teaching them things around the house, like whether it's to cook or to do laundry or those kinds of things that are important life skills. And I think as homeschoolers, we probably did it at an earlier age than a lot of people do. Well, because they were home.

That's right. They were home when we were doing the chores. That's right. And it prepares them for life once you get out of the house. Your wife will be glad that you know how to do this. I can remember one of my daughters going to school and she was just absolutely shocked.

Her roommate did not know how to do it. There were a lot of things. She didn't know how to sweep effectively. She did not know how to iron. And so my daughter was like, "What in the world?" And I think my husband got a real charge out of it because he used to preach these things as life skills, "I'm teaching you life skills.

These are good life skills. Just how do you know how to live your life?" And so she got to college and passed on a few of those life skills to her friends. That's great. Yes. They're all good habits. I think I just want all of our listeners to hear there are habits that belong in your home school that you might not think of as academic, but they are habits that you practice.

Maybe it's simple habits like taking turns. You know, is it your turn to pick the family movie? Is it your turn to pick the kind of ice cream? Is it your turn to pick the cereal? I mean, it's taking turns. It's a habit of showing mercy to people who've made a mistake.

Like we trained our girls to not only give apologies, but to accept apologies. You train their character. There's all kinds of habits. So for you, what has been the most challenging part of homeschooling? I think that it's always challenging when, you know, one thing that I was really challenging with, especially one of my children, was when they don't get what you're trying to teach.

And none of us, I remember saying, none of us know everything, and we all have to learn. So it's okay if you don't understand it at first, but working with that child and not getting frustrated myself, because I did that many times, and helping them to see because, you know, when they're struggling through something and you're a little frustrated because they're kind of taking it out on you, and so it's, you know, I think it's those kinds of things.

It's more of the, not so much the academics, but the character traits that, you know, those life things and those personality things, you know, working through those things, I think were harder than, you know, academics. Yes, it was hard to, like you said, with chemistry, you know, it was hard to teach things that you don't remember, or maybe you weren't really good at it when you were in high school, because I remember people telling me that all the time, like, "How can you teach everything?

How can you teach physics and chemistry and, you know, all those things that, how do you know all of that?" And I'm like, "I don't." I have to learn a lot with these children. But I can learn alongside. Yes. I'm going to learn alongside of them. That's right. And so, but I think harder than all of that was, you know, more of the personality and character things, because you are with your children all the time, and we're all human.

And that's just, some days it was hard, you know? Yeah. Yeah. But if you think about it, those are the eternal things. I mean, it, I'm not saying it's not good to know how to do a proof, you know, a logic proof or geometry, that is a fine thing.

I am saying that's not an eternal significance thing. And the Lord has given us our children and trusted us to guide them to the eternal things. And sometimes, I completely agree with you that that is the most challenging part of homeschooling. So parents who are listening to this thinking, "Oh, I don't know how I'm going to do high school math." That is the least of your worries.

That is so true. That is going to be the least of your worries. And then you need to remember too, like when they, you know, they graduate and they become young adults themselves, you have poured into them, you have prayed for them, you have instilled, you know, the biblical worldview, the godly values, but then you have to entrust them to God and they then have to make their own decisions.

And it may not always be, you know, what you would want it to be. And that's hard, you know, that's hard, but just you have to, you know, God is teaching me to remember He is faithful and, you know, my husband and I, you know, to the best of our ability, you know, or raise them the way we felt God wanted us to, but then they have to make their own, you know, choices when they get to be older.

And so, so yeah, so that's, you have to remember that too. Absolutely. In hindsight, what have you discovered to be the most necessary trait for a homeschooling parent? I would say if I had to just pick one, I would say humility, probably. And just remembering, you know, that I am nothing and, you know, I'm a sinner and I am nothing.

And one of my favorite verses is, "He must increase and I must decrease." And just remembering that because it is not easy, you know, nothing about raising kids is easy anyway, but homeschooling is not easy, but it's so rewarding. But, you know, it really, you have to rely on God.

And so I think just, you know, humility and remembering who He is and who I am, so. That you know what, I don't think if you had thought for a week, you couldn't have come up with a better answer. I think that's very true. And we can't take pride in our children either, right?

I mean, that's, you can't, I mean, it's just, you know, I also love that verse, "I have no greater joy than to hear that my children are walking in the truth," which is so true. We don't. We have no greater joy, but it's not because of us, you know?

We spend most of our time trying to get out of God's way for Him to do what He wants to do in the lives of our children, who He loves more than we ever could, if we can even imagine that. Okay, what would you tell a beginning homeschooler to do first?

So there's somebody who's just considering this homeschooling journey, and they look all the way down to the end, and they think, "Oh gosh, I can't look that far. I'm just going to look right here in front of me." What's the first thing they should do? I would say just, what does your child need, you know?

I mean, what does your child need? And it's not always just academics. I mean, yes, we have to get through the academics. I mean, I think we've made it clear that we're not saying you don't, but what does your child need? And then you can go from there. And so that would probably be the first thing I would say, and then just asking God to help you.

Yes. Yeah. See, this is why you are the experienced homeschool mom, because I can feel it. I can feel all the listeners who are just homeschooled, just thinking about homeschool, the beginning parents thinking, "Well, I guess I would test their reading level or I would see what they're able to do." We're all thinking things like that, but so you know what is necessary.

Who is my child? What are they like? How has God shaped them and what do they need to become the most them that God made them to be? That's right. And then you don't have to be perfect. I mean, you can try something with them. If it doesn't work, hey, change it.

Try a different thing. I had one child that I must have tried. I felt like I tried every spelling curriculum out there, and he just was not getting it. And I talked to everybody, "What do you use? What do you use?" And he was frustrated. I was frustrated. I'm like, "Oh." But we just kept on.

And I finally, the Lord finally helped me find, I mean, we hit on something that worked for him, and it was what he needed and it wasn't what, yeah, it's good to talk to other people and find out what they're doing and all that stuff, but remember, it may not be for your child, and it's okay to change, to change midship and just go a different way if they need to.

Absolutely. Absolutely. This has been the best thing to catch up with you. Oh, you too. And it's the best thing to pluck your wisdom from the years. Last question. If you had it to do over again, would you do it? Would you homeschool your kids? It was worth every tear, every late night, every joy, every, it was definitely, oh yes.

I think beyond anything else, listeners, that's what we want you to know that every hard knock, every bruise, every struggle is worth it. Finding your hearts together as a family, developing a rhythm of learning as a family, a family culture that hangs together, that celebrates one another is worth devoting your life to.

So go and invest in your children, go and invest in your family. It will pay dividends for life, and you'll never be sorry. you