what kind of returns do you think people can expect in their real estate investing? So let's say that we assume that real estate is going to appreciate at an average of 3.4% per year. And if you lever that 5 to 1, at least in the early years, you're going to get an appreciation rate that multiplies 3.4 times 5.

You're going to be amortizing your debt during that debt service on that for the 80% of the value that is levered. And then you're going to hopefully be producing some cash flow as well. Over the 30 year period, you're slowly deleveraging, assuming things go reasonably well, right? You're paying down the loan, the property is appreciating, so your equity balance grows.

And once it's paid off, now you're getting the unlevered real estate return of like 3.4% plus maybe a 4% to 5% cap rate. You're probably looking at a 7.5% to 8.5% unlevered return at the end of that whole period, once you've paid off the debt, and you're looking at more than that in the early parts of it.