Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the all in podcast besties have reunited. It's been a bestie summer Chamath. How are you doing? You're back in America? Yes, I'm back in America. Back in America. Feels great. Good summer. Yes. I had seven weeks in Italy. It was really incredible. What is the vibe in Italy post pandemic?

Obviously, they had the roughest of any nation, I think, except for China and Wuhan. With COVID-19. How's the psyche there? No, it's incredible because they're I mean, they're so resilient, they basically decided that they don't ever want to go through it again. So everybody wore a mask and people socially distance there's a lots of dinners outside no restaurants were really seating people indoors, you'd walk into a store and you'd have to put some, you know, Purell on your hands and wear a mask.

And there was like, you know, 4050 50 cases a day. And then I keep looking at the news when I was there 60,000 a day here I was it was just really, it was sad. And then on top of that to see the riots, the fires. I mean, there's a you know, it's been a disturbing summer here.

How are you doing, David Sachs? You're back in San Francisco. And you got to spend a little bit of time in an undisclosed location. As we know from the last couple episodes of the podcast. How is San Francisco right now? How has your bestie summer been? David Sachs: It's been great.

Yeah, I was I guess I can now disclose that my location was, was Mexico specifically Cabo. And that was it was a great place to be for David Sachs: nobody cares. David Sachs: Yeah, exactly. But actually, it was great. It was a great place to be in the early stages of the pandemic, because everyone was wearing masks, you know, they did take it really seriously.

And there were very few cases and seemed like it was under control, at least in the area I was. And then, you know, we came back to San Francisco for school for the kids school, which, you know, I'm not sure we have to be here. But, but that's, that's, that's what we came for.

Aaron Norris: Is the kids school actually open? Are they going to school? Or they keep pushing it out two weeks like my kids are? David Sachs: Yeah, it's we don't, they're not going in person yet. But I think they keep trying to figure out when they're gonna be able to start doing that.

So it's all zoom based right now. Aaron Norris: Yeah, which means no learning, right? I mean, do you think these kids are actually learning on the school? David Sachs: Yeah, I mean, I think they're learning on the school. I think they're learning on the school. Aaron Norris: Yeah, which means no learning, right?

I mean, do you think these kids are actually learning on zoom? Or do you think it's just glorifying? David Sachs: A little bit. I mean, a little bit. I think it's difficult. Aaron Norris: Yeah, we gave up on it. And Friedberg, are you there? Friedberg Kahn: I'm here, Bay Area.

Aaron Norris: How's your best summer been during this crazy time? Friedberg Kahn: I've been in the Bay Area. I've been crossing all seven layers of Dante's Inferno here in California, moving from the outer layer of COVID to the middle layer of California's proposed wealth tax, to the inner layers of extreme heat, smoke and the absolute central layer of pain.

More recently, my three year old daughter decided 34 nights ago to not sleep anymore. So yeah, we've been living the life. It's been glorious. And I wear a mask now for COVID and then I wear another mask on top of that mask for the smoke. So we're just living the California dream.

David Sachs: Oh, God. Aaron Norris: What my parents immigrated here for, you know, paradise. David Sachs: Well, I guess that's a good place to start. And just if anybody cares, I spent 10 days in Malibu and had a great time. I guess nobody cares. Can't be how my best summer was.

Aaron Norris: Jason, how's your best summer? J-Cal, how's your best summer? Jason Wong: You know, I've been lonely and I tweeted, "I'm lonely." And I got about 50 phone calls from people who are like, "I can't imagine J-Cal being sad." But I actually- David Sachs: Yeah. I'm like, "I'm lonely." And I'm like, "I'm lonely." And I'm like, "I'm lonely." And I'm like, "I'm lonely." And I'm like, "I'm lonely." And I'm like, "I'm lonely." And I'm like, "I'm lonely." And I'm like, "I'm lonely." And I'm like, "I'm lonely." And I'm like, "I'm lonely." And I'm like, "I'm lonely." And I'm like, "I'm lonely." And I'm like, "I'm lonely." And I'm like, "I'm lonely." And I said, "What are the symptoms of depression?" Because I think I might have depression.

And I went through it and I was like, "I don't have depression. I have great empathy for all the people suffering." And just being isolated, you guys know me very well, better than anybody, I like to talk to people. And it's been really difficult for me to, I'll be totally candid, to be isolated like this.

And the podcast is great and doing this podcast is great. But man, I miss people. I just miss people. What are the symptoms of your depression? Just before you were self-diagnosing, I'm just curious. I was feeling just sad about watching the riots and watch people shoot each other. And then watching the wildfires, watching people die unnecessarily.

And then watching the wildfires, watching people die unnecessarily. And then watching the wildfires, watching people die unnecessarily. And then watching the wildfires, watching people die unnecessarily. And then watching the wildfires, watching people die unnecessarily. And then watching the wildfires, watching people die unnecessarily. And then watching the wildfires, watching the wildfires, watching people die unnecessarily.

And then watching the wildfires, watching people die unnecessarily. And then watching the wildfires, watching people die unnecessarily. And then watching the wildfires, watching people die unnecessarily. And then watching the madness for the election. It was just all becoming, I wouldn't say overwhelming, but it just made me very sad that so many people can't go back to work.

And then the stock market's ripping. And it's a very, I don't know how you guys feel, but it feels very surreal, right? Because in our world, and I don't know how your portfolios and investments are doing, a lot of the companies we've invested in as angel investors are doing just wonderfully.

And we're investing more than ever, but then you turn on the television and it's like the doom scrolling is crazy. So I had to just stop doom scrolling. I think that was the key thing, Chamath, was just looking at Twitter is that the trending topics is so depressing and just so overwhelming at times that I took three days off this weekend and went camping and I literally didn't pull up Twitter and I felt much better.

So I think it was really Twitter related, like just opening up the trending topics. I don't know if you did that on your holiday in Italy, but it really is a quick way to get depressed. The best thing is that I was using it at a different time zone.

And so, you know, I was basically out of the flow and it makes a huge difference because then you're not in the emotional turmoil of people's immediate reaction. And so you can just kind of move on. And then also I just had a really fun summer because I really tried to detach and not use my phone.

I kept my meetings to a few hours a day and then otherwise I was doing things. I was like, "Hey, I'm going to go to my phone call to J Cal." Yeah. "Hey, J Cal, I saw on Twitter that you're sad and lonely." It's like, "Yeah, yeah?" It's like, "Are you suicidal?" It's like, "No." "Okay, goodbye." I'm too much of a narcissist to ever consider that.

But I do want to thank you, David, for having me down to Cabo. And we got to have some good times. We watched some good movies. Gladiator, Extended Cut was great. Some other movies that we watched could get us canceled. So we moved on. But I think that's the best thing about being on the show.

I won't admit that we watched History of the World or any other Mel Brooks movies, but we had a good time. We played a couple of rounds of golf and that was good times. But let's talk about California because I think we're all residents currently of California. But let me just put it out there.

How many people on the call are considering leaving California? Is that going through anybody's mind right now? Because it's going through mine. No. Well, it's not for me. But I think that California is sort of emblematic of what could happen if you actually have the legislative bodies plus the top sort of political leader up and down on one ticket.

You basically have massive rife incompetence and it's been compounded. People who are Democrats would have said, "Oh, the best thing that can happen for Democrats is if you have local cities plus the state of California." And I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing.

I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. Plus the state Senate, plus the governor as a Democrat.

Republicans would have said the same thing for Republicans. But as it turns out, it basically creates the worst outcomes. And so instead, what you need is a little diversity of ideas and a little push and pull. But California is like a bunch of clowns in a clown car right now.

It's a joke. But I'm not going to move. Now, a part of it I'm not going to move is my taxes I've set up in such a way where California can't get access to most of my assets anyway. So they can pound cent. Definitely believe the same. Yeah. David, how are you?

Sax, how are you feeling about California right now? And just the craziness in San Francisco, the homelessness problem in San Francisco has become acute during this. It's really getting crazy. And then the wealth task on top of it. It's a disaster. It's a disaster. I mean, I'm not leaving or anything, but it's certainly a topic of conversation that's come up a lot.

And I do know people who have left. I know a couple of people, prominent people in the venture community who've recently moved to Austin. And it's a horrible time for the city and state to be proposing all these new taxes. Just take one example. Because people are already realizing that because of COVID and this new sort of work from home and Zoom business, it's going to be a lot more expensive.

Business culture where you can kind of work from anywhere that people are realizing they don't need to be in San Francisco or in Silicon Valley anymore to be in the technology industry. And so at precisely the time that people were reevaluating where they wanted to be, realizing that they could be anywhere, California is now proposing to massively increase the cost of being here.

So it's horrible timing. And then you do have this seemingly chronic issue in San Francisco, particularly with the sort of homeless problem. It just seems to keep getting worse. And there's sort of this weird hostility to technology and tech workers here that I think is somehow used as a scapegoat to prevent the city from dealing with its real problems.

And what do you perceive those real problems to be in the city? I mean, you used the term homeless. I think most people looking at the problem, as one person candidly told me, they're looking at the problem as a real problem. And I think that's a real problem. And I think that's a real problem.

And I think that's a real problem. And I think that's a real problem. And I think that's a real problem. And I think that's a real problem. And I think that's a real problem. And I think that's a real problem. And I think that's a real problem. And I think that's a real problem.

And I think that's a real problem. And I think that's a real problem. And I think that's a real problem. And I think that's a real problem. And I wouldn't say who said this, but it's a prominent person. They said, Jason, the issue here is this isn't a homeless problem.

This is a junkie problem. And they use specifics that I'm using that term because that's the term to refer to people who are addicted to opioids, methamphetamine, fentanyl, and that if you were to actually unpack what we're calling a homeless crisis, it's actually a crisis of drug addiction, and specifically fentanyl.

And I don't know if you guys saw, we're going to hit something like 500 overdose deaths this year. We're going to double last year, and it's all fentanyl, which is a particularly deadly drug. So how much do you think that is the problem, David? Huge. You're right that homelessness is not the cause of the issue.

Homelessness is the consequence of long-term drug addiction. Long-term drug addiction and mental illness. I mean, it's the end state. And you're right, the city is not really tackling the underlying issues. In fact, it's kind of aiding and abetting them. I mean, how many millions of needles does the city give away every year, and then it only collects a small fraction of them with the remainder ending up on the streets?

It's just, it's bonkers. And I think part of the problem is that we keep saying that until we can't demand any improvement in the situation in terms of homeless people. We have this poop squat in San Francisco that's literally cleaning poop off the sidewalks because homeless people are using our sidewalks as like a latrine, basically, as a bathroom.

And what you keep hearing is that, well, we can't do anything about that problem until we solve the homeless problem. And certainly, we should try to solve that problem. But I think that's the problem. And I think that's the problem. But it's a very long term, you know, difficult and tractable problem.

In the meantime, we can certainly do things like demand that homeless people not do that. Yeah, and the policing seem to there seems to be a distinct issue with policing right now. I watched the San Francisco Tenderloin Twitter account, David Freeburg, and they've arrested something like 260 meth and fentanyl dealers.

But we have a DA Chesa, I believe his name is, who doesn't believe in prosecuting meth. And he's been in the police department for a long time. any of those crimes related to drugs or petty crime. Freeberg, what has the city turned into for you as somebody who's been a long term investor in the Bay Area?

Well, I moved here after I graduated college in 2001, and I loved San Francisco. It was a quieter city and a quainter city. I honestly, over the years, have found the traffic and the congestion and the buildup of the city to be frustrating. I'm a little bit of an anomaly in a sense, because I think a lot of people think that the city should continue to grow and progress and build housing and so on.

Those are all fine objectives. But I think the quality of life has degraded for some time in the city as infrastructure hasn't kept up with the changing pace of companies growing here. And as a result, we've kind of got this ballooning, inflating budget that's been poorly managed. You've got, I forgot the statistic, but there's some number of thousand people plus that are city government employees in San Francisco earning over $300,000 a year.

And so there's a chronic kind of bureaucratic issue that is the cancer that has caused a lot of the follow on crises that I think we're now experiencing acutely here in the city. Now, in terms of leaving to your earlier question, I was really like, I've just been like everyone, like I kind of talk about the Dante Inferno layers.

It's also like... For me growing up, it's like a seven layer burrito. It's like one layer of shit after another. Start with the beans and in the middle, you got the sour cream. And, you know, this city has just gotten kind of... And the state has gotten more and more difficult to live in.

And I was certainly thinking and talking to my wife, like we got to leave. Her family's here. So we're not going to leave the state. But then I did a call last week that I think 18 of us were on with Governor Newsom. And, you know, he made a couple of really interesting points that really did honestly reset my perspective.

You know, I've tried to take a step back and think a little bit more broadly about the long term opportunity in California. The way the state operates right now, it's the fifth largest economy in the world. They ran a surplus. They're refinanced their debt. They've done a great job kind of managing kind of the fiscal gap that's being created by the COVID crisis.

And, you know, Governor Newsom made a point like we have had the California exodus story that's percolated and cycled really for decades. He pointed out an article, which I've not been... I've not been able to find, but I've been looking for it from Time magazine from 1959 that were like declared.

This is the year everyone's going to exodus out of the state. And we hear it every couple of years. There's some crisis that precipitates the mass exodus. And it hasn't happened because it is a great place to work as a diversified industrial base. It's not just tech. Tech is a lot of the growth, but there's a lot of industry here.

Largest ag producer, largest, large military aerospace industry and on and on and on. This is a it's a great diversification. It's a great diversified economy. It's a great diversified cultural base. It's by the oceans. It's by the mountains. It's an incredible place to live and work. And I don't think any of us want to give that up.

And and the media has done a great job kind of magnifying these small stories that aren't really a story. Governor Newsom made the case that this wealth tax proposal, you know, was one assembly member. It didn't even get into committee. It wasn't even really being considered, but it kind of created this press flourish and everyone got involved.

And I know it kind of freaked out about it and it became this kind of another catalyzing event, but it wasn't really real. So if we kind of broaden our perspective a little bit, both in terms of space and time, I think we get a little more kind of comfortable with like of all the places to live and all the places to work.

This is the best. And you can go save some taxes and move to Austin. But I mean, then you got to go live in Austin, you know, whatever. Well, it's the it's the best. You're right that it's the best in terms of climate, geography, natural beauty resources. And the industries that have developed here and have strong network effects.

But it's not the best politically. I mean, it's among the worst politically. And it seems like the politicians are doing everything they can to mess it up. I mean, I almost wonder if there's like a resource curse issue, particularly with San Francisco, where, you know, there's this thing and and I mean, this observable thing with governments that that sometimes you get a resource curse where if there's like a lot of oil in the country or something, you end up with with a government that's not very good.

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And whenever you prohibit people from engaging in the type of economic contracts relationship that they want to engage in, you're reducing surplus. And so I hear what you're saying. And I think there is. I think this is all true. I think this is all true. And I think this is all true.

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And I think this is all true. And I think this is all true. And I think this is all true. And I think this is all true. And I think this is all true. And I think this is all true. And I think this is all true. And I think this is all true.

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And I think this is all true. And I think this is all true. And I think better oversight over the use of force. The body cam idea, Jason, I've seen you tweet about. I think that's pretty interesting too. I think you're right that-- I'll just explain that for a minute.

The body cam idea I had was I asked, does anybody know, and does Black Lives Matter or another organization track which police departments-- because we could get a list of every police department that exists in some database somewhere. Do we actually know what percentage actually have body cams and what model they use and what percentage are working?

And one of the things that I think has happened this year is the live streaming and the live video and the number of smartphones out there has resulted in us being able to see what black and brown people have been telling us for decades, which is they're murdered by cops.

And now we get to see it. And when you see George Floyd get murdered, it's fairly obvious that that's what happened. We don't have a video. Or they have the video of Breonna Taylor getting murdered. So that's from a cop webcam. I'm sorry, body cam. So I was thinking we should just start with that as a base.

But I think that's a basic, which is every single cop car should have a 360-degree camera in every cop. It should be a federal mandate. And I don't exactly know how federal mandates work, Sax. But don't you think there should be a federal mandate for just cameras and car cameras?

I think it's a good idea. I think the use of cameras is a good idea. I mean, maybe not recording the police officers when they're sitting in their car. But every time there's like a-- A call. Yeah. They pull somebody over. Movement. Sort of like Fourth Amendment type search and seizure type situation.

Yeah. I think it would make sense to have that on video. Why not? Yeah. I mean, you got to think every police will behave better. Go ahead, Freeberg. There was a case the other day. A young guy, I think he was 19 years old, was shot in DC named Dion K.

I don't know if any of you guys watched the body cam footage. No. And so he was a 19-year-old black man. He was shot and died. But in the body cam footage, you can see that he pulls out this gun and throws it. And when he pulls out the gun and flings his hand around, he's got the gun in his hand.

That's when the cop shot him. And so there was about 100 protesters that showed up, but it's largely become a non-story as a result of the facts associated with the body cam footage. But I just want to propose something else that's a little bit more radical. Maybe my libertarian ideals kind of cross with my socialist ideals and forming this concept.

But perhaps-- You're a socialist? No. Yeah. I don't know. I've never been accused of that. But if we trace back, you know, the-- Yeah. These systems are really chaotic. Everything you're talking about is layers and layers of bureaucracy and ideas and shit we should do to manage the problem.

But there is kind of one common, you know, butterfly effect, butterflies at the source of all of-- a lot of what we're talking about, which is guns. If there weren't any guns in the United States, I would not feel threatened as a police officer. I would never have any reason to feel threatened and I would never have any reason to pull a gun.

The reason I always make to pull a gun as a police officer is my life is threatened. And in the absence of firearms-- I have no right to pull a gun. And that's the case in like the UK, for example, where there are like no police officer shootings of civilians because they're never under threat of being killed by a gun.

So there's a simple answer, which is get rid of the guns. But you know, a little too controversial and obviously many layers to that argument, especially from kind of both sides. But I would say, you know, much of what's going to go on now and in the future is just chaos theory.

It's going to be building more layers of complexity. It's more entropy. It's more kind of associated complexity to try and resolve the underlying problem of all of this, which is that we've got guns on the streets. We've got guns in people's hands. And therefore, you know, there's always this threat against every individual that their life might be taken by another.

Well, let me make a prediction right now. There's not going to be any new gun control legislation for a generation because of the looting and rioting that's going on. Gun sales are at an all time high. I mean, every single gun sale is going to be at an all time high.

I mean, you can't get guns. You can't get ammo. And there are more first time gun buyers in the United States in the last several months than there's ever been. I mean, the ranks of the NRA must just be swelling right now. And so this idea that you're going to get gun reform, I don't think it's going to happen.

People aren't going to support it. And you know, I think, you know, you use the word, I think, idealistic. I mean, I think it's like a little bit naive to assume that gun sales are going to be at an all time high. I mean, it's not like it's going to be a big deal.

I think it's going to be a big deal. I think, you know, I think it's going to be a big deal, but I think that's the thing. I think that's the thing. You've got to have a gun in your hands. You've got to be able to assume that you're going to be able to get rid of all the guns in the hands of bad actors.

There are a lot of people in this country who feel the need to have a gun to protect themselves. And, you know, the cops can't always get there quickly enough. And a lot of people feel the need to have that for self defense. I also think the minimum amount of training for a police officer should not be six months.

I think they have to re I mean, if we really want to have the society move forward and, you know, to solve our issue of race, which is, you know, like the original setting of America, we're going to really need to start thinking about making, you know, police go back to school for 18 months, 12 months and rethink how we how we address the situation, because it's just tragically unfair that one group of people's children has to worry when they're driving in a car and, you know, other people on this call don't have to worry.

And, you know, that is just crazy. Let's take a hard shift to the economy and then we'll go into the election. What do you think, Chamath? You've been talking a little bit about the economy and the stock market ripping again, and we seem to have hit a pause. But we did have like a massive rip with Tesla and Tesla and Apple, I guess, doing a stock split and we hit all time records.

Why are we hitting all time records, Chamath? We have the most important thing. We have the most important thing that's happened, I think, in economics in the last 10 years. The Federal Reserve, Jerome Powell gave this landmark speech and he basically said we are going to keep rates at zero for the next half decade.

Basically, and five years at zero. I mean, quite honestly, it could be a decade, but they're going to let inflation run before they basically match it with rates. There's no path to any near term inflation of any kind whatsoever. So Jason, my honest perspective is you're basically going to get paid to be long equities because your risk free rate is zero and will soon be negative.

And what are you supposed to do if you're an asset manager? What are you supposed to do if you take California back to using California? Let's just say you're CalPERS, you're the California pension system, and you have hundreds of billions of dollars. Then you need to generate 5% or 6% a year.

That's a lot of money. So you're going to have to be a long equities. You're going to have to be a long equities. You're going to have to be a long equities. You're going to have to be a long equities. You're going to have to be a long equities.

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