I am James Hong and welcome to the Surpassing Value Podcast. The fuel and desire for this podcast was born out of a compulsion to flesh out what's been going on in the midst of an ocean of megaphones that may not actually withstand the test of scrutiny. As a signpost theologian, I will do my best to filter out the impurities and point people in the right direction.

For episode 11, I want to spend some time talking about the most difficult time I've ever faced in my life so far and how it relates to the conception of life. Many who are listening already know exactly what this episode is going to be about. As I stated in the introductory episode to this podcast, now and then I want to be vulnerable with the listener to bring a sense of humanity into the conversation.

Knowledge is powerful, in particular when it is personal. I'm hoping my vulnerability disarms you and allows us to see each other as fellow humans, fellow image bearers as is every single human being that has ever walked this planet. As I'm recording this, I'm 39 and I'll be turning 40 shortly.

Not an old man, but not a young man either. The most difficult period in my life by far, overwhelmingly, was when my wife Diane had her ectopic pregnancy. In December of 2019, Diane had been complaining about stomach pain for a bit of time. It started off as slight stomach pains never went away and the pain only increased over several days to the point of unbearability.

Not wanting to miss work and me just going along with it, Diane finished work one weekday and we had pre-planned to go to the hospital afterwards. I was in trial during this time and just to articulate an understatement, trials are extremely stressful. And while you're engaged in one, they absorb your entire life.

In any case, we come home, we change, we go to the hospital and wait as Diane is called to get evaluated. She gets called in, goes in. After some time, the nurse that had called Diane in comes out, looks at me, and calls me inside. He proceeds to tell me that he's probably not supposed to be telling me this, but he couldn't help himself, he couldn't keep it to himself.

He looks at Diane and myself and states, "Congratulations." I fall to the floor in absolute disbelief and Diane is the one who's sort of like, "Get it together, man." We're escorted to a nearby patient room and I proceed to find out why Diane is nowhere near as thrilled and elated as I am.

Because of the pain she had been experiencing, she had a strong suspicion that her pregnancy might be ectopic. She began to articulate similar stories from her group of friends who had gone through an ectopic pregnancy. As I listen to Diane, I'm reasoning internally, thinking, "Well, if this is indeed an ectopic pregnancy, the nurse wouldn't have told us that she was pregnant, right?" You see, in context, implied that it was a viable pregnancy.

Ectopic pregnancies seem to be relatively common. One would think that would be something you check for prior to informing a couple they are pregnant, right? Diane's concerns at the time seemed a little too pessimistically cautious. At least to me. I'm already on the whole "I know it's a boy" train, thinking about further plans to clean out our second bedroom, to get a baby ready.

The doctor comes in. I make some lame joke about him being Korean since I'm Korean too, but I could tell from the moment he was walking in that he was apprehensive. The optimism is slowly starting to leak out of my body, and he asks us what information we've received so far.

The tone and the manner in which he posed that question tipped me off, and I thought to myself that I don't want to get this nurse reprimanded or fired, so I didn't play it on too thick with the nurse. I just conveyed to the doctor that we were told Diane was pregnant, but in the same breath, I also stated that she was concerned that it could be an ectopic pregnancy based on some of the symptoms that she had.

The doctor readily agreed, and in fact had already put in a request that we be received at a sister location to the hospital where we were at, where Diane could be examined since the hospital we were at wasn't equipped to do so. We gather ourselves, and we begin to depart from that particular location.

As we're leaving, the nurse waves congrats, the same LVN who had told us we were pregnant with this huge smile, and looking back, I can't tell you if I was even able to muster up the fortitude to even crack a smile. I just know that we left. We get to the sister location, pretty defeated at this point.

Diane begins her examination. Sure enough, Diane had not only undergone an ectopic pregnancy, but she had undergone massive internal bleeding. Surgery not only needed to happen, it needed to happen now. From here, let's recount the events that have occurred so far. We went from a mild stomachache, so Diane took some Pepto-Bismol pills, to this mild stomachache transferring or morphing into ongoing piercing pain where Diane could not find any relief.

The pain was enough to warrant a trip to urgent care. We have been told that she was pregnant with our first child. We were then told that she was probably technically pregnant, but that the pregnancy is most likely not a viable one. Then I'm told she has to undergo emergency surgery in order to have her life preserved.

For those who don't know what an ectopic pregnancy is, an ectopic pregnancy is when a fertilized egg attaches to a fallopian tube as opposed to the fertilized egg attaching to the uterus as in a normal pregnancy. In Diane's case, the fertilized egg, aka our first child, had attached to one of her fallopian tubes and ruptured it.

The ruptured fallopian tube was a cause of massive internal bleeding. The doctor who is going to perform the surgery comes out and explains the situation to me. She looks at me and states the obvious, the obvious meaning that the fertilized egg, aka our first child, was going to die.

His life was going to be terminated. Everything is happening extremely quickly, so I want to be able to process everything. I say that because the doctor must have noticed me hesitate even if it was just for one second as I was processing everything. She proceeds to tell me that she wants my permission to perform the surgery which essentially would terminate the life of our unborn child and save my wife.

Remember, the life of our unborn child is not viable, period. Medical science currently has no way of saving our unborn child in that particular circumstance that he was in. The doctor went on to tell me that no matter what I say, she is going to save the life of my wife since that is just her duty, however she was still seeking my consent.

This portion of the conversation happened, I think, within a matter of seconds, but that matter of time completely belies the weightiness I felt about the subject matter and ultimately my intentional and premeditated decision to give consent to the doctor to perform the surgery thereby ending the life of our unborn child and saving my wife.

I think 5 or 10 seconds must have passed before I emphatically told the doctor to please march forward with the surgery and save Diane. They had already begun prepping Diane for surgery in anticipation of my reply. She's stretched out on a gurney and she's already received some type of anesthetic that's going to put her under so she's nearly out of consciousness.

I walk over to her so I could see her before her surgery. I could still picture her very clearly prepped for surgery, lying on the gurney, and because she's under the anesthetic, she's barely conscious. I have to tell you, there's something quite piercing about seeing your spouse in complete weakness with heavy eyes and barely acknowledging your presence.

Although the doctor herself seemed extremely knowledgeable, extremely capable, and experienced one could understand my nervousness about losing my wife in that situation. After all, we had both just gone through a complete catastrophe vis-a-vis this pregnancy fiasco, this ectopic blunder. Outside the doctor who told me she's performed this surgery many times and coupled with what just happened, you could see how my confidence in everyone is not at a satisfactory level.

Sitting there outside the OR and alone, prior to even meeting with the doctor, you better believe there were some desperate prayers being lifted up. I didn't care if it was a public place, the life of my wife was on the line, at least in my mind. All I could do is beg like I've never begged before.

Diane's parents and Diane's brother, Sam, they arrive and we're just sitting there praying on our own. I don't remember how much time passes, but enough time passes and the doctor walks out to us. Before she walks out to us, I caught her smiling which already spoke volumes to me.

The doctor relays to us that the surgery was a complete success and that Diane was going to be perfectly fine. We go out to see her and she's barely conscious on the gurney, just like how I described earlier, except perhaps even more so, but at least I know now that the worst is over.

We were in the hospital for a total of two days before Diane was discharged. We have another huge scare a couple days later wherein Diane was rushed to the hospital again. I again went through this whole second phase of dread and terror of losing Diane. As it turns out, the excruciating pain that caused her to go to the ER the second time was based on after effects of the ectopic pregnancy.

Of course, when that happened, I was still in trial. I have to request a recess from trial and I rush out to the hospital, but that's a whole second episode I won't detail here. Let me park here though and backtrack a little bit to the obvious moral dilemma I faced here.

As a Christian who has complete faith in the Word of God, I believe that life begins at conception. I believe that life begins at conception. Filled with the Word of God, science itself seems to point at life beginning at conception. This isn't meant to be political in nature. Remember in episode two when we talked about dialectics that the culture pushes on us?

As we enter into this discussion, this portion of this episode, be careful not to instinctively assume a culturally forced dialectic as opposed to an objective, truthful one. Culturally imposed dialectics have shown at times to blind the observer from seeing the truth of the matter or the truth of the origin.

I'm not stating that science seems to point at life beginning at conception because of republicanism. What I mean is when you see how human beings are formed in the womb, there's an immensely strong medical case, biological case, physiological case, that is easily made for life beginning at conception. WebMD states the following with respect to conception, "Fertilization happens when a sperm meets and penetrates an egg.

It is also called conception. At this moment, the genetic makeup is complete, including the sex of the baby." Moreover, a baby's heartbeat could be heard as early as three weeks after fertilization. What does the word of God say with respect to conception? Jeremiah 1.5 states, "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you.

And before you were born, I consecrated you. I have appointed you as a prophet to the nations." Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. And before you were born, I consecrated you. I have appointed you as a prophet to the nations. The word for knew is a word that connotes intimacy.

So before Jeremiah was formed, before we were formed, we were known by God. Not like an acquaintance. Not like an acquaintance. Known to God in every dimension, aspect, angle. Known to God completely, intricately, and exhaustively. Psalm 139.13-16 states, "For you created my innermost parts. You wove me in my mother's womb.

I will give thanks to you because I am awesomely and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works, and my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in secret, and skillfully formed in the depths of the earth. Your eyes have seen my formless substance, and in your book were written.

All the days that were ordained for me, when as yet there was not one of them." In observable science, we know that we are woven when the DNA from a mother and father come together to form a complete, separate person, which is when? The moment an egg is fertilized by the sperm, aka conception.

That is completely correlative with being formed and wove. What I mean to say is that the word choice used in the Bible very much describes empirical data, observable phenomenon, with respect to conception. Luke 1.31-36 states, "And behold, you will conceive in your womb and give birth to a son, and you shall name him Jesus.

He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give him the throne of his father David. And he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and his kingdom will have no end. But Mary said to the angel, 'How will this be, since I am a virgin?' The angel answered and said to her, 'The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you.

For that reason also the holy child will be called the Son of God. And behold, even your relative Elizabeth herself has conceived a son in her old age; and she who was called infertile is now in her sixth month." In Luke 1.31-35, the prophecy is that you will conceive in your womb and bear a son.

So conceiving is a separate act from being born. Conception is wholly different. Wholly different. They're connected, but they're wholly different from being born. Connected yet separate. This distinction is interesting because the moment of conception as being the beginning is echoed. In Luke 1.36, Elizabeth had conceived a son, and that description is given to her as she is six months pregnant.

And behold, even your relative Elizabeth herself has conceived a son in her old age; and she who was called infertile is now in her sixth month. Psalm 51.5 states, "Behold, I was brought forth in guilt, and in sin my mother conceived me." Matthew 1.20 states, "But when he had thought this over, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, 'Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife, for the child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.'" When what was conceived in her was from the Spirit, none of us would argue that at two to three weeks, Jesus was an actual person.

None of us would argue that. The moment the conception happened, all of us would state that's when Christ was a person. Not when that conception had progressed along two to three weeks after. Doesn't Hebrews 2.17 state something similar? That He was made in every way like us? Hebrews 2.17, "Therefore, in all things, he had to be made like his brothers, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people." Much like Adam came into being right away and not over an extended period of time.

My point is this, life begins at conception. So then if life begins at conception, how does this relate to the moral dilemma I faced while Diane was completely unconscious and helpless? Let's chop this up, hash this out, and state some truths because if all of this is true then there is a huge elephant in the room that needs to be addressed.

Let me start off by saying that I do not believe I committed murder. That might come off as self-serving to some. It might sound as if I'm vacating deserved judgment on myself. You might find this hard to believe but if I did rationally and intelligibly think I committed murder, I would state so.

One of the many reasons I'm not calling it murder is because it takes away from the actual real murder that is committed. The other reason is, suffice it to say, there was no malice in my very real and tangible consent that was given to proceed with the operation that would save Diane.

And so if we're going to come to a conclusion, we need to agree on a working definition of murder or at the very least agree on whether or not malice is a required element of murder. Matthew 5 21-22 states, "You have heard that the ancients were told, 'You shall not murder.' And whoever commits murder shall be answerable to the court.

But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be answerable to the court. And whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be answerable to the supreme court. And whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell." So we know murder is intentional taking of human life as opposed to the accidental taking of it, which is why there were different prescriptions in the law depending upon the intent.

Intentional or accidental? You see that in Numbers 35 16-31. So we see malice, we see an intentional taking of life based on Numbers 35 16-31. Moreover, Genesis 9-6 states, "Whoever sheds human blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God he made mankind." Compare this to Deuteronomy 19 4-5, "Now this is the case of the one who commits manslaughter, who may flee there and live.

When he kills his friend unintentionally, not hating him previously, as when a person goes into the forest with his friend to cut wood, and his hand swings the axe to cut down the tree, and the iron head slips off the handle and strikes his friend so that he dies, he may flee to one of these cities and live." God gives different prescriptions if one kills intentionally versus accidentally, and this is woven in with the presence or lack thereof of malice.

First John 3-15 echoes that same sentiment in Matthew 5 21-22. First John 3-15 states, "Everyone who hates his brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life remaining in him." In both of these passages we see that murder begins with malice. And that is why Jesus stated, "You have already broken the commandment not to murder if you have malice in your heart." Reminds you a little bit of Cain and Abel, doesn't it?

Genesis 4 4-8, "Abel on his part also brought an offering from the firstborn of his flock and from their fat portions. And the Lord had regard for Abel and his offering, but for Cain and his offering he had no regard. So Cain became very angry, and his face was gloomy.

The Lord said to Cain, 'Why are you angry, and why is your face gloomy? If you do well, will your face not be cheerful? If you do not do well, sin is lurking at the door, and its desire is for you, but you must master it.' Cain talked to his brother Abel, and it happened that when they were in the field, Cain rose up against his brother Abel and killed him." That's Genesis 4 4-8.

From an objective angle, there was no way the surgery wasn't going to proceed with or without my consent, and for good reason. My unborn child was going to perish whether or not there was any intervention or attempted intervention. Based on contemporary medical science, he was on his deathbed. However, and this is a big, big however, let's not speak untruths, falsehoods, even in the most difficult of situations.

I absolutely consented and gave my hearty approval for the surgery to proceed. The surgery that would constitute an intentional taking of a human life, even if it is by way of implication. And if you were to put me back in that situation, 1,000 times out of 1,000, I would make the exact same decision.

It's really a no-brainer for me. It doesn't mean my decision didn't carry any weight. It doesn't mean that there isn't remorse. It doesn't mean a life isn't lost. It doesn't mean it was easy. And so this is how I've chosen to remember it, understanding that my knowledge of this portion is incomplete and faulty.

And you'll see how it's all connected. I give my wholehearted approval for the surgery. My son is in 100% complete agreement, understanding his fate is sealed and mom needs to be saved. Without even the slightest hint of resentfulness on my son's part, in fact, with a total embrace of complete unanimity, my son sacrifices his own life gladly and willingly for the joy of knowing that his mom, who is my wife, will be saved.

You know, I have always admired Uriah of the Old Testament. So much so that if I had a son, I would want to name him Uriah, Uriah, the gentile convert to Judaism, who refused comfort while his fellow soldiers were at war, even when offered by a king, not just any king, but the king through whom the Messiah would come, the Messiah, the king of all kings, refusing to sleep in the comfort of his own home, but rather choosing the dust of the ground, murdered because of his selflessness and nobility, murdered because his virtue was too much for adulterous and what would soon be bloodstained David.

You better believe I will always choose to remember my first son, Uriah. It is extremely hard to explain, but I want to clearly articulate the following. Uriah, my first son, never even made it out of the womb, but I have to tell you, I am so incredibly proud of him and so incredibly proud to call him my son.

He didn't do anything, he didn't do anything, but I'm so proud of him. Why am I sharing this with you? As Christ was going to the cross and as he was praying to the Father that the cup be taken from him, as Jesus was being scourged so much so that flesh was being ripped closer and closer to his bones, as he agonizingly carried that cross until he just couldn't do it anymore and needed to be helped by Simon from Cyrene, as he went through excruciating torture in the throes of his final breath and finally cried out to the Father, as Jesus did all of that completely willingly in obedience to the Father.

Have you ever considered how the Father felt as he was watching all of this? Do you really think the Father felt nothing? Not only did the Father not feel nothing, the Father felt every bit of it in a way we could never even come close to realizing, imagining, or even conceptualizing.

All the while we confess the perfect, infinite, immutable, and impassable God. Isaiah 53, 7-12 states, "He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth, like a lamb that is led to slaughter, and like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, so he did not open his mouth.

By oppression and judgment he was taken away, and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off from the land of the living, for the wrongdoing of my people to whom the blow was due? And his grave was assigned with wicked men, yet he was a rich man in his death, because he had done no violence, nor was there any deceit in his mouth.

But the Lord desired to crush him, causing him grief. If he renders himself as a guilt-offering, he will see his offspring, he will prolong his days, and the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in his hand. As a result of the anguish of his soul, he will see it and be satisfied.

By his knowledge, the righteous one, my servant, will justify the many, for he will bear their wrongdoings. Therefore, I will allot him a portion with the great, and he will divide the plunder with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and he was counted with wrongdoers.

Yet he himself bore the sin of many, and interceded for the wrongdoers. Thanks for making it to the end. I'll continue to try to make the journey worth it. To him be honor, glory, and eternal dominion, James Honda. Amen. (upbeat music) you