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E17: Big Tech bans Trump, ramifications for the First Amendment & the open Internet


Chapters

0:0 David Sacks intros the besties
2:8 Jason & Sacks hash it out & the besties break down reconciliation in American democracy
21:9 Big Tech bans, did they give Trump an easy out? Ramifications for First Amendment
43:1 What laws can be written to prevent Big Tech oligarchy in the future?
59:32 Why Big Tech acted in unison against Trump: internal & external pressure, pending Democratic administration
69:42 Current Pence/Trump relationship, McCarthyism 2.0, should Big Tech be broken up?
92:46 History of the presidential pardon, Chamath on SoFi's Anthony Noto

Transcript

Hey everyone, hey everyone, welcome to the All In Pod. Your illustrious moderator, Jason Kalkanis, has been purged. Canceled? He's been canceled. We canceled him for his constant interruptions and low IQ comments. We decided that the minimum IQ required to be on this pod is 140, 150. He did not make the cut. And so now, it is just me, Chamath, and Freeburg. Jason is away. He is actively implementing our jerk-off-to-win strategy to solve the pandemic and free speech. I'm going all in. Let your winners ride. Rain Man, David Sack. I'm going all in. And it's sad. We open-sourced it to the fans, and they've just gone crazy with it. Love you, man. I'm going all in. Hey everybody, hey everybody. It is an emergency podcast. Episode 16, hit number two in the rankings on the Apple iTunes. Podcasting store. Clearly, we hit a nerve. It's been an insane week, and the dictator dictated that he was not satisfied with doing our podcast once every two weeks. And so, here we are on a Sunday, the queen of quinoa, Rain Man himself, David Sacks, and the dictator chopping it up for you, the loyal, confused, angry, infuriated audience of All In. Jason, please. It's the craziest week of our lives. Jason, please don't describe to the audience the characteristics that describe yourself. Okay. This has been a crazy 72 hours. Can anybody remember a week that has been more crazy in their life with the exception, I guess, 9/11, the financial crisis? I'm trying to think of this level of crazy. Jason, I think we should start with what happened after the last All In podcast, between you and Sacks over text. We should get to that. We should get to that. I think we should get it all out there. We should share it publicly. No, no, no. No, we should. I think it's worth doing. We talked about this before you joined us. Oh, shit. Chamath and I are having an intervention. And I'm going to say something real quick. I think it's worth highlighting that one of the things that I think we have the opportunity to do as a group is to kind of elevate the conversation a bit and not frame things as being black and white, and not frame them as being one or zero or partisan or left or right. And everyone in this conversation has nuanced opinions about a lot of different topics. And when you sum up all those opinions, it doesn't define a left or a right person or Democrat or Republican. I think that's what makes us a compelling and interesting group to talk to. Sacks has been characterized as the Trump guy. He took offense to that. And in particular, the heated conversation you guys had last time. And I do think it's worth kind of sharing that with everyone and letting you guys reconcile publicly. Yeah. Have a group hug. Yeah. And reframe kind of how we talk about each other and how so that we can kind of set a bit of an example on how to do this well. I can start or you can start, David. I'll start because I'm the one who has the objection. You're the aggrieved? Yeah. I mean, so look, I think that J-Cal does an amazing job moderating the pod, and it's a difficult job. And so I don't want to, this is not something I'm trying to blame him for. But I do have an objection to being labeled in a certain way. I think anybody would. We don't want to be misconstrued and we want to be able to characterize our own views. We don't want to be labeled in a certain way. Now, I think Jason has sort of branded me as a Trump guy because frankly, it's amusing to him. I think he's mainly trolling me. But the audience doesn't necessarily understand that. I mean, if you go back and look at my Twitter feed or my blogs, I haven't written about Trump for years. I mean, I haven't said anything really about him. I haven't said anything about him. That's not my agenda. And I think I don't have a pro-Trump agenda, but I also don't have a pro-resistance agenda. I've described my position as anti-hysteria. Sometimes that means criticizing Trump like I did in the last pod. Sometimes it means criticizing the resistance. So I just don't like being labeled a certain way. And I think Jason and I sort of kind of resolve this. If I were labeled by politics, just Jason calls me the conservative. I think that's more accurate. But the question is, what am I conserving exactly? And I would describe myself more as like a 1960s style liberal. I'm a believer in free speech, ACLU style. I'm a believer in King's dream of a colorblind society. I'm against all these foreign wars and interventions. If I had been around the 1960s, I would have been protesting Vietnam. That's kind of more where I'm coming from. And I guess the reason I'm a conservative now is because the political debate has not been as much as I would have liked it to be. And I think that's the reason why I'm a conservative. I think that's the reason why I'm a conservative. I think that's the reason why I'm a conservative. But if I'm trying to conserve anything, it's really the liberal victories of the 1960s. So in any event, I don't think that qualifies me in any way as a Trumper per se. And I just don't want Jason making jokes to somehow have the audience get the wrong idea because I want to be heard. And I know Trump's an extremely polarizing figure. And the second you tell somebody you're frankly pro or con Trump, the other half just doesn't even stop, doesn't even want to listen to you. And so my views are more complicated than that. Okay. Well, thanks to everybody for tuning into the All In podcast. It's been an amazing episode 17, your emergency pod. Thanks to our sponsors. Listen, I think what makes this podcast great is the diversity of opinion and the respect that we show for each other. If my breaking chops, which is, as everybody knows here, my superpower in life, along with talking, has pigeonholed you into being something you're not, or if you felt I've taken a cheap shot at you in any way, I apologize. And it was not my intent. My intent is to keep the conversation flowing, to entertain the audience, certainly, but not at anybody's expense, David, and certainly not yours, because I do consider you one of the best friends I've had in my life and one of the most supportive people I've had in my life. And I think we all feel that way about each other, that we go to bat for each other, support each other. I do think that this highlights and dovetails with what we, and I've given it a lot of thought, actually. I've really spent, since the last podcast, a lot of time thinking about your position, David, and where you're coming from. And then also where the people who maybe you maybe agreed with some of Trump's victories, and certainly you're a conservative. I don't know if you voted for him or not, or if you're willing to say if you did. I'll put that aside for a moment. But I do think that we're all seeing in our families, in our lives, and now as a nation, what is the off-ramp here to the people who supported Trump up until this coup attempt and this ugliness, and then how do we reconcile it? That is the grand reconciliation. And I think that's the key to the reconciliation here is the thing that has me very concerned, because we're a microcosm, David. You and I are unbelievably close friends for a very long period of time, and we struggle with, I think, Trump. Trump is, as I was saying in our group chat earlier, it's like the trolley car problem. People will be pulling up, "How do you deal with Trump as the example of, what do you do if the trolley car, you know, is broken?" And I think that's the key. It's going to kill one person or five, and the brakes broken kind of situation. And I think Jack and the platforms also have a difficult task. Do you leave this person up after what we saw on Wednesday? And a lot has changed since Wednesday. Can I just say something? I'll leave it at that, and then I'll throw it at you, Mark. I don't want to- No, Jason, here's the thing. I think that we all have views. And I think the thing that I respect the most about Sachs is that his views are independent of the candidate. And I think his views, quite honestly, are in many cases the most well-reasoned and well-thought-out because he's frankly one of the smartest people in our friend group, if not probably the smartest. So I think what it speaks to is the fact that you can have these momentary sort of pauses where you have these people that are so polarizing that you forget that there are legitimate views on both sides. I mean, I would characterize my political views as in some cases, like deeply, conservative, meaning get the government out of the way. They're a bunch of incompetent fucking buffoons. And on the other side, on some issues, I think that they should be extremely interventional, like in healthcare or in climate change, because it's just so dire, and there needs to be a public mandate in order to drive change. I don't know where I fit anymore, especially because it's harder to be nuanced, as Friedberg said at the beginning, without sounding like a complete crazy person because one word triggers the other side against you. So I think the thing that I just want all the listeners to appreciate, not just amongst the four of us, but also amongst their own friends is having a little patience and tolerance here is really important because we cannot become the worst of ourselves, especially because of a single person who will be rendered with an enormous asterisk beside his name, and by him, I mean Trump, for the rest of our natural lives. And so let's just not allow that to happen. Let's just allow what one person has been able to do to malign all of our natural ability to just not be completely stupid, quite honestly. So I just think it's important to realize that we all have completely, completely nuanced perspectives they're all worth listening to. And I would just tell people, don't fall for the simple easy out to assume that being a conservative means you're a Trump supporter, or being a liberal means you're not a Trump supporter, because I think that there's— There's a lot of different ways to do that. I think that there's a lot of different ways to do that. I think that there's a lot of different ways to do that. I think that there's a lot of different ways to do that. issues in which, frankly, look, let's be honest, the Wall Street Journal opinion by, was it Lisa Lasser, what is her name? Amy Lassel, somebody? Sky posted in the group chat. Nick, can you find it? I can't remember it. Sassel or Lassel is her last name. Anyways— Oh, Kim Strassel. Kim Strassel. In the Wall Street Journal, yeah. She had a paragraph intro where, and again, I wasn't a Trump supporter, have never been a Trump supporter. I do have those things. There was some sympathy to some of the things he did. The way that she described his four years, although she was selective, it was impressive actually, meaning getting the rhetoric right on China, getting the rhetoric on trade right, the deregulation that he's created in some ways. There is very much a reasonable narrative up until the capital storming, where the glass was definitely half full. It could have legitimately been viewed half full. It was just a matter of opinion because he was just such a crazy person, and his style was so shitty. I think the thing, and David said this on the last part, after storming the capital, it is very clear 100% categorically, this guy is just a complete piece of shit. Now, the people that stand with him are extremely isolated. I just want us to remember that there is probably something to learn from everybody. He actually did some reasonable things intelligently well. He's not going to be the only person that's going to be the leader of the country until he fucking self-immolated himself. Let's just not give into our basic instincts here. I think there's a lot to learn from everything. I think the frustration of a lot of people is some people saw this coming. Some people, when Peter Thiel said things like, "Hey, don't take Trump literally," and all this kind of stuff, some of us were taking him literally, and some of us were very concerned. People were saying, "Oh, you're being hyperbolic." "He's not Hitler. He's not dangerous." You know what? Bullshit. He is dangerous, and you should take him literally. I think a lot of the folks who enabled him and who thought it was funny, who weren't on the other side of his vindictiveness, his dog whistling, and the anger and the violence he put out into the world, and he consistently did this. He started by saying, "Get that person the hell out of here. I would in the old days, the cops would have thrown him down the stairs," kind of thing. He is like Tony Soprano or any other mob boss who knows how to incite people to do dangerous things without having the culpability himself. As you pointed out, Chamath, he might be the one who gets off scot-free while they're rounding up all these people. You got the prediction right, Chamath. He's not going to- These people are going to go to jail. There's multiple felonies. He's not going to get off scot-free. He's not going to get off scot-free. Do you think he's going to jail? Do you think the people who broke into the- Yes. You think Trump's going to jail? Yes. Oh my Lord. I'm not sure about that. But I do think that, like I said last time, Trump is now the first sitting president to cost his party the presidency, the House, and the Senate since Herbert Hoover. Jason, if you're right about Trump, the voters have certainly been able to see that, and they've punished him and his party at the polls. I do think that whatever you do to Trump individually at this point is sort of redundant with that. He has now cost his party any share of the power- Everything. Everything. Any share of the power in Washington. So can I ask you a question, David? When I made that point about Peter Thiel and the people who supported him early, do you have any regrets in your own thinking about being supportive of Trump in his early years? You're coming at this from a place I've never even come at it from, which is I'm not a partisan person. When Trump won the election in 2016, my first reaction was not, "Is this right or wrong? I don't... What side am I on?" My first reaction was, "Why did this happen?" I tried to understand it. I read the Hillbilly Elegy author. My surprise at that happening caused me to ask questions. What I think became really clear is that Trump won despite his manifest flaws because of the failure of the elites. He's a sort of outsider populist, and the country was trying to send the elites, bipartisan, I should say, bipartisan elites a message. Yeah, everybody wanted to change. And what was that message? To Shamath's point, for the last 20 years, the bipartisan consensus in Washington has been to feed this Chinese tiger and is now potentially on the cusp of supplanting us as the richest economy in the world. We have mired ourselves in these forever wars in the Middle East. Again, these were things that both Democrats and Republicans got us into. My reaction was, "What are you talking about?" And I think the answer to that was, "Yes, it's true." And I think it's a very important message for us to try and understand it. And then once he was in the presidency, I didn't see my job as being to be part of some crazy resistance. There needed to be a rational opposition to Trump. And there was never a rational opposition. People would basically object to anything he said just because he said it. Which then made your side, and I'm going to say it again, because they were like, "Well, the left's being hysterical. We're going to dig in." Not really. I mean, if you've been reading National Review for the last few years, and especially the last two months, there's been plenty of criticism of Trump. Well, I was thinking more Ted Cruz, Lindsey Graham, all these people who said they would be never Trumpers became right in line Trump supporters. And they're partisan. They're politicians. They're part of the party. For people who care about ideas, what I would say is I didn't change my ideas. I think I changed my ideas one way or another, because Trump might happen to agree with one of them. Freedberg, what's your take? I don't like talking about Trump. Well, that is kind of, I think, where we're getting to. I mean, look— What's the off ramp here, Freedberg? What's the end game? You guys remember how the emperor came to power in Star Wars? Palpatine turned the Republic against itself, and then he— Emergency powers. Emergency powers. Look, to Sachs's point, I care more deeply—I care very little about Trump, the person. And I care more deeply about the motivations of people that want a person like that in power. And I care more deeply about the way the dialogue is happening to resolve ideas and to resolve to decisions in this country right now. That is why I think that, you know, my vote last year in our last two podcasts ago, which seems like 10 years ago, was that the biggest political failure of 2020 is the Institute of American Democracy. And it's only gotten worse in the last two weeks. And I think that the mechanism by which we have debate is lost. It's from everyone from the Republican to the Democratic leadership. It is attacking and finger pointing. And there is no resolve for forgiveness. There is no—everything is all about justice and winning. And there is no resolve for objectivity and discovering the truth and doing the best thing for people, not the best thing for party and doing the best thing for country. And that's really easy to say and really, really hard to do, as I think everyone is realizing. Because as soon as you say, let's bring the country together, half the country raises their hand and says, but I want justice and we can't come together until we have justice. And so at what point do you break the cycle? You know, revenge never ends until someone steps down first and says, you know what, I give up. I'm not going to—I'm going to end up in the losing position. But at that point, maybe reconciliation can begin. And I'm more concerned about the heat, the temperature. And everyone says turn it down, but no one's actually turning it down. And so, you know, the legacy of Trump, I honestly care less about. I care much more about going forward. How do we resolve to decisions that aren't all about the Democrats overrunning? And, you know, I was actually upset about Georgia. Because I do think it's a problem if you have a one party state and we don't have a balance and we don't have a forum for conversation and we don't have a forum, you know, for coming to kind of, you know, objective sentiment that's best for the people. And so, you know, I'm much more interested in flipping the conversation away from Trump and trying to think about, you know, going forward, what are the things, what are the forums, what are the mechanisms that we can have to create equity in the country, to create reconciliation, to create balance in decision making, and to turn down the temperature so that Chancellor Palpatine doesn't become— the evil emperor. And that we don't lose to China and, you know, all the things that are kind of emerging as being the unfortunate outcomes. Yeah. We have three or four major wars we need to solve. The pandemic, China, wealth inequality, global warming. Chamath, do you think at this point in the podcast, we should walk through what's happened since Wednesday vis-a-vis, you know, Trump being deplatformed? Or do you think we should talk a little bit about, and skip to reconciliation? I think we have a fork in the road here. As the moderator, I'll just ask Chamath, maybe you could pick which direction we go. Well, I think it's important to talk about what happened. And I'll frame this in the context of Peter Thiel. He has a philosopher that he's talked a lot about, René Girard. And, you know, basically the Girardian philosophy is essentially that, you know, people come into conflict because they're extremely similar. And, you know, they effectively want the same things and they're competing for the same sort of essentially scarce resources. And the way that you resolve that is through some sort of cathartic sacrifice, right? Meaning like there needs to be a grand crime, a grand act. And I think that we're at this point to Friedberg's sort of earlier statement where you got a choice, which is you either throw democracy under the bus or you throw DJT under the bus. And you don't have a choice in that. And sort of like, it's not just even the United States. It's almost like, you know, sort of democracy as an institution's hand was forced this past week. And so it is probably important to look at what's happened in the last few days through that lens, which is, you know, it's almost like people first were shocked. And then now we're in the midst of that reflexive reaction to what is a simple choice, which is you can basically forgive the guy or you can re-affirm, the institution, which means to sacrifice the guy. And I think that's the thing that's happening in real time. And it's going to be, I think over the next few weeks, a super messy conversation because you're going to have a bunch of dumb decisions. You're going to have a bunch of overreaching. You know, you're going to have a bunch of dramatic sort of bellyaching on both sides. You know, there was this thing today where Devin Nunez was like screaming about how he had lost his three, thousand followers on Parler, three million followers on Parler, but he was saying it on Fox News, which is distribution to millions of people. And so- Can I ask a question about this reality now we're all facing? Do, because the event that occurred on Wednesday, we are all still trying to process and new information is coming in. As we, you know, as people get the videos and as we let the dust settle, the dust is settling, I'm curious, Sax, how do you look at what happened on Wednesday? Do you view it as a coup? Do you, because some of the information that's come out about they were trying to get to Pence and that they wanted to kidnap people and then that dovetails with the kidnapping schemes that were going on and there were pipe bombs and a police officer was beaten to death with a pipe and his skull was crushed or something. We don't have all the details yet. Fire extinguisher. A fire extinguisher was beaten to death with a fire extinguisher. Some of the videos I've seen, I've seen a lot of police being dragged, you know, that counteract the selfie police, you know, so many different things occurred on Wednesday. I think we all have to just think about what happened on Wednesday. How do we each feel about what happened on Wednesday? I'll go to you first, Sax. Well, I mean- And not because I'm framing you as anything, just because you haven't talked. Yeah, no, I mean, I already said, I already gave my thoughts in the last pod that it was outrageous. It was a travesty. It was a rally that turned into a riot that turned into, you know, some sort of insurrection, I guess you could call it. It was a rebellion against authority. I think coup is potentially a strong word because it wasn't, nobody ever had their hands on the levers of power. I mean, the fate of the Republic was never in question. I know there were even, you know, people tweeting about how these marauders, whatever you want to call them, almost got their hands on the electors ballots. I mean, yeah, but we all know how they're voting. Even if they had gotten them, we would just have gotten new ones. I mean, that was sort of a ceremonial thing. But look, it was an absolute outrage. But I do think that there is a thing happening now called threat inflation, where, you know, using language like, you know, going from riot to insurrection to now coup, there is a type of inflation happening that is then used to justify the reaction by the other side to it, which is now, you know, the basically the ending of freedom of speech, which is really, I think the big thing that's happened since the last pod is really the reason why we are having this emergency pod, I think is because of what's happened there. I think the emergency pod was just to make sure that the pod wasn't ending because of you and I getting in a big fight. I think that was people's concern. No, I mean, look, yeah. The Beatles were breaking up. Yeah. Well, that's true. Look, just keeping the pod together, you know, with four big egos on it. You're right. It's hard. It is like the Beatles, you know, one day is going to break up, but not yet. Not yet. But I want to tie in this issue with what you said about the off ramp, okay? Which is, you know, what is the off ramp from this? Look, everybody understands, I think, regardless of what side of the political spectrum you're on, that we are caught in a cycle of insane hyperpartisan warfare. And, tit for tat, I think, that's what we're going to be doing. And that is the thing that we need to, that is the ledge we need to walk back from, okay? But the problem that everybody has is that they can only see the other side doing it. You know, they can't see themselves doing it. This is a two-way street. Both sides are doing it. And that's how de-escalation works, is both sides have to concede something. Yes. And unless you can see when your side is doing it, we're never going to break the cycle. Now, the thing that is happening is that we're going to be doing it. But the problem is that we're going to be doing it. And I think that is happening right now. Now, what Trump did was absolutely outrageous. And I think it brought him to an ignominious end in American politics. He will pay for it in the history books, if not in a court of law, okay? But now what has happened is the next step in the tit for tat retaliation, the storming of the Capitol has now been used to implement a sweeping attack on free speech. You know, the Twitter employees who sent that letter to Jack, who have been at the Capitol, who've been demanding this for years, have finally gotten their way. And there is a widespread purge going on. Not just of Trump, not just a permanent ban on Trump, and then a whole bunch of other people, you know, conservatives. There are now liberal accounts. There's an account that I wasn't even aware of called Red Scare. They're basically, you know, pretty much on the left. No one could say exactly what it was that got them banned. I guess they had Steve Bannon on their podcast. They are suddenly banned from Twitter. Nobody knows why. I subscribed to the Red Scare podcast. It's actually, it's called the Dirtbag Left. They're kind of like socialists trying to be public intellectuals. And it's oddly compelling. I'll leave it at that. But they are now banned from Twitter. They somehow got- Let's pause for a second on DJT getting banned from Twitter. This is close to 100 million followers. It's a billion dollars in value. He just had the PGA say they'll never do a Twitter. I'm going to do a Trump golf course again. So the real world ramifications for Trump are his businesses are going to be devastated. His platform is gone. And I was very pro Trump staying on Twitter. I thought it was insane to think that the president of the United States would have their Twitter handle removed. That seemed crazy to me. However- Crazy. It's a crazy concept. That being said, Trump knows how to dance right up to the line on the terms of service. And I think- Well, here's the thing. Here's the thing. I think there's imminent danger. And I think what we don't know is what is concerning to me. The fact that all of these services have turned him off, I believe is indicative of Wednesday was under hyped and that they really did intend to kidnap folks and blow off bombs. And the Proud Boys founder was arrested days before with selling- Yeah. -large magazine weapons. I think that they wanted to kill and kidnap people and perhaps even like hang the vice president. I know that sounds crazy, but that's- Honestly, honestly, Jason. That's what I think is going on with Twitter. I think they told, I think they showed them the receipts. I don't, Jason, stop. Honestly, let's not fucking fear monger. We're no better than anybody else with that bullshit. We don't know any of that crap. And the reality is that if they were doing that, they are not stupid enough to do it on a platform where you basically follow anybody you want. Okay? I mean, if that were the case, then fucking ISIS would be using Twitter. They don't use Twitter. They use Telegram. Everybody's known it. Chamath, they live streamed storming of the Capitol. These people are not smart. We've established that. Anyways, can we just, let's just like, let's not do the left version of QAnon. Okay? Let's not have now the left's version of the crazy conspiracy theories. Here's, I think, what is worth talking about. 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I think it's a little bit of a portability of your profile. portability of your profile. portability of your profile. I think you could pass a law. I think you could pass a law. I think you could pass a law. I mean, we do have a government, I mean, we do have a government, I mean, we do have a government, we can pass the law. we can pass the law. we can pass the law. So you can pass a law that says So you can pass a law that says So you can pass a law that says if you're going to operate a if you're going to operate a communication platform, here are communication platform, here are the rules you have to abide by the rules you have to abide by And give them a chance to correct, right? You can give- And by the way, here, here points them out, given that it may be so technically difficult to break them up, that may be one of the points, one of the paths of resolution. And we're going to find out the next two to three years, because I don't think that anyone on the left or the right likes big tech, as they call it, and the way it's operating today. But I think technically having been in these organizations, it is impossible to break them up. And I will say something controversial, I also think consumers benefit from the scale that they operate at. And I don't think that they should be broken up. And I think that there's economic value to having Google be at the scale it's at, and Amazon being at the scale it's at, and Facebook being at the scale it's at. And it doesn't harm consumers, I think it helps in aggregate in terms of pricing and service availability. But that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be regulated in a way that everyone can kind of feel like there's some absolute universal standard applied. But I know I'm in the minority on that. Yeah, I would say my view about antitrust used to be that it was all about consumer harm. And I've actually come around to more of the liberal point of view on this, which is it can't just be about consumer harm, it's also got to be about power, and not just market power, but democratic power. And the fact of the matter is these companies have just gotten too large and too powerful, and they have too much influence on our democracy. And it's incompatible with, you know, a country democracy. So what if they got regulated? What if they got regulated like a utility sacks? So like we have regulatory bodies for utilities for both telecommunications and for power and energy? What if we had a regulatory body for internet service? Well, yeah, I mean, first and foremost, I want an online Bill of Rights. You know, I want to know what my rights are online that these tech, this cartel of tech monopolies cannot take away from me. Because something is a right if it only if it if it can't be taken away. And right now, it can all be taken away. You know, your online identity, your right to participate in the public conversation can be taken away with no explanation by these companies, we have no rights. And, like, what would you do if you're online? presence is taken away, like that is a huge part of the modern world. What is going on in Trump's mind? Do you think right now, having lost his ability to communicate with a billion people, you know, like, he had this ability to control the conversation. And now he's, I mean, I don't even know if people will put them on air. That's why I think something is brewing with him, you know, he is not going to sit tight and and wind out the last 10 days here. You know, whether it's some ad hoc press conference, he calls tomorrow and just rants on TV, or he tries to declare some, you know, pass some law without Congress's approval or does something I mean, this guy is never proven himself to be able to sit quietly and to not be in the spotlight, or to be told that he's wrong. And all three of those things are being imposed upon him right now. So he is squirming like, like a cat being put in the bath. Also, it seems like they're doing some last ditch stuff. Pompeo lifted restrictions for you. I don't know if you saw that, that was a little bit of an interesting thing that was slid in the last couple of days. Little jab to the Chinese on the way out. Where do you think, Sax, last 10 days? 10 days to go. Hey guys, the zip tie guy apparently got arrested. Yeah, I want to know what's going on with him. I mean, these guys having zip ties with them is just. No, but this is incredible that how systematically they've been able to basically get a lot of these folks. Jason, I will tell you, I will tell you the one thing we got going for us is the deep state. I mean, thank God for folks who are loyal to the constitution and to the rule of law in this country. And the FBI is incredible. And our, you know, the civil servants who have been career civil servants in government, as much as we make fun of the bureaucracy and the bullshit that goes on. It's great to be an American and to know that there's, you know, that there's these, these folks out there looking out for. This is like being in the final stages of a stress test. It's like the final. Well, by the way, as I predicted on the last pot, I said there would be major, major arrests. You know, everyone was saying that, that, that these protests are being treated with kid gloves compared to BLM. And I was like, just wait, there's going to be arrests. And sure enough, they're rounding up these people quick. A lot of charges are going to be filed. I think the most genius thing was, I don't know who said it was a honeypot, but the, the parlor post that said, you know, it's incredible Sacks, but like, um, Sacks pointed this out. So I'll give him full credit for this. But there was a parlor post. Where it was like the title of the person was like, you know, office of the, uh, the president's pardon attorney. And you know, send me, send me your name and phone number and email. If you want to be parted for what happened in the Capitol and say, And name the crime you committed. So we go. Yes. I just set up a website called capitalriotsamnesty.org. Please go to capitalriotsamnesty.org and tell us what you did. And if you outline each of the crimes. You outline that you did, you will get amnesty for those crimes. You have to outline in detail what you did and give us any photographic and video proof you have of your crimes. The reason I suspected that was a honeypot is because, um, Jimmy Carter. Pardoned, uh, you know, after the Vietnam war, he pardoned everyone who had dodged the draft as part of the Vietnam war. He did that as a blanket pardon without naming any names. So it seemed very suspect to me that Trump would need individual names and crimes to be able to pardon them. I knew it was ceremonial, right? That was like a healing. A wound moved by Jimmy Carter. It wasn't, no one was going after them because we weren't prosecuting those. Sure. Sure. Sure. Sure. And so, but it was never litigated. So it became a precedent. I think I do think that Trump probably, I mean, this would be a very interesting court case, but I do think he could issue a blanket pardon and everyone on the mall that day. It's possible. I'm not saying he should. I think it's a terrible point of escalation as opposed to deescalation. Being our, our lawyer and our historian, you know, what is the, the order? Yeah. The order is the origin of the presidential pardon. How is that even legal? And how did we end up in a place in this country where any law could be superseded by the president telling you it's okay for you to break this law and pardon you after the fact, or even before the fact? It's, it's, it's, uh, it exists because it's in the constitution and the framers of the constitution put it in there. I don't know what their thinking was. I've never really studied that. Um, it is a, almost a residue of, or a, a vestigial monarchical power. Yeah. That somehow was included in the constitution. It's incredible, right? I mean, like the intention of it, my understanding was to, um, correct injustices that occurred so that it would be a backstop against somebody who was. By the judgment of the one guy. By the judgment of the one guy. Outside of the courts. It's like crazy that like, you know, we, we have a court system. And it relies on tradition. It relies on, you know, people buying into America. Right. And I, and I think that's the Trump stress test and I can't wait till we don't talk about this guy anymore. I know. I'd love to see an amendment getting rid of the pardon powers. I don't know. I never feel good about it. I feel like the court, the court should be where you should adjudicate the, you know, appeals and such, but. All right. Well, listen, we've beaten this to death. Can I, can I end on something? Um, let's end on something uplifting. I took, um, uh, a bunch of SPACs public, uh, at the end of last year. And on Friday, um, one of the vehicles that I'm the CEO of merged with SoFi. Um, and I want to tell you something about the CEO of SoFi, Anthony Noto. Um, and I think he'll be okay cause he shared this story a couple of times, but, uh, his parents got divorced when he was three years old. He, uh, grew up on welfare, food stamps, um, sort of free lunch kids until middle school. Um, went to the, um, the West Point. Um, was it an all-star? He was the all-star stock analyst, was the CFO of the NFL, was the CFO of Twitter than the COO of Twitter. Um, and, uh, you guys know my story, but, you know, uh, ended up in the United States after growing up in Canada, after escaping a civil war. I grew up on welfare. And I said to Anthony, uh, what are the odds that two kids who grew up that way could have ended up in a moment where we were part of doing something really amazing that, you know, none of us was a meaningful accomplishment? And he said, only in America. And, uh, only in America. This is the single best fucking country in the goddamn world. 100%. Um, and, uh. It's worth fighting for and it's worth having these debates and I think it's worth doing the pod. And so I'd like to suggest, David, we keep the pod going. Stop, Jason. The American constitution is the most incredible fucking document because that is the foundation on which all of these things are built. It's just the most amazing thing. So I am really glad that we're all having this conversation and I would just say, guys, keep the faith. Let's put the light back on Donald Trump. Uh, I would have as much sympathy as possible for as many of those folks in the capital, maybe not the folks that were intending to do harm, maybe not zip tie guy, but there's a lot of other people that are, that just got caught in the undertow. I would try to have sympathy for them. Um, and I would really don't lose focus now. People, Donald Trump, Josh, Holly, Ted Cruz, stay fucking vigilante. I would also love you guys. Think about doing something for someone else this week. Yeah. Yeah. And that's all. Let's all do something nice. Exactly. Yeah. I love you guys. All right. Love you, besties. Love you, sacks. Love you. Sacks. Love you. Sacks. Come on. We'll let your winners ride Rain Man, David Sack And it said We open sourced it to the fans And they've just gone crazy with it I'm going all in Besties are gone We should all just get a room And just have one big Hugh Georgie Cause they're all just It's like this sexual tension But they just need to release it now Wet your feet Wet your feet We need to get merch I'm going all in I'm going all in I'm going all in We'll be back in just a few minutes.